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QB or the WR which is it ?
#1
All the WR threads and threads about player stats or production over the past several days have got me thinking Hmm

And we've been through this topic numerous times over the years. But just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players ?

I mean let's face it, and I know bad to horrible Oline and suspect play calling/scheme is a factor but set that aside, we haven't had good QB play the last several seasons.

Andy Dalton has the bulk of the snaps the last four seasons but going back a little further there's been a sprinkling of McCarron, Driskel, and Finley and they've been bad as well. This isn't just about bashing Dalton, but his stats even when not under pressure just are not good.

AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.

How many times have we seen Mixon have to go backwards, pick a ball out of the grass, stop, and so on to catch a simple swing pass ? How many times has Auden Tate or A.J. Green had to make circus nearly inhuman leaps, twists and turns to haul in a pass ? How many times has 6'5" or somethin Tyler Eifert had to catch a ball at the extreme top of his ability ?

How many open receivers close to the sideline and the ball is 5 yards out of bounds ? over their heads ? at their feet ? Back shoulder throws late or to far to the inside ? on and on

How much does Burrow change this ? How many more yards would Joe Mixon have if he could catch a screen pass where he's being thrown open ? How many more YAC would Tate have had if he didn't have to leap over an SUV doing a back flip to catch the ball ? What could Ross have done if he was hit in stride a bit more ? What if A.J. didn't have to break stride or stop to catch a deep ball ?

The PFF rankings holic posted have several of the top rated receiving corps lined up with top QB's, coincidence ? Our RB's stats in the passing game have died lately, why ?

I can't wait to see what happens with the receiving corps in the future ?
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#2
People see what they want to see.

Plenty of receivers from other teams have to make circus catches.  No QB in the league hits every WR in stride. Daltons numbers on deep passes are about as good as any QB in the league and it is not because every deep catch is a circus catch.

I remember one year when we had one of the top rated pass defenses in the league some one here started a thread asking why Bengal receivers were always tightly covered while our opponents receivers were always wide open.

To claim we have not had good QB play over the past "several seasons" is silly.


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#3
(05-21-2020, 12:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People see what they want to see.

Plenty of receivers from other teams have to make circus catches.  No QB in the league hits every WR in stride. Daltons numbers on deep passes are about as good as any QB in the league and it is not because every deep catch is a circus catch.

I remember one year when we had one of the top rated pass defenses in the league some one here started a thread asking why Bengal receivers were always tightly covered while our opponents receivers were always wide open.

To claim we have not had good QB play over the past "several seasons" is silly.

BS Fred
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#4
(05-21-2020, 12:53 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: BS Fred


Okay, you got me.  How can I possibly disagree with such a brilliant argument?

No other receivers on any other team ever has to make a circus catch.

Every other QB in the league always hits every receiver in stride.

No other QB in the league ever throws a bad pass that a receiver can't catch.


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#5
(05-21-2020, 12:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.
I mean, you're accounting for poor QB play in regards to other positions, but it seems you're not doing the same in regards to QB play.

Meaning...

Look at the OL Andy had to work with those 3 seasons.  Could that not help explain why the numbers weren't as good?  At what point during those 3 season did we not have a well below average OL?  I mean, we're talking bottom of the barrel, among the leagues worst over the time span.

What about the loss of AJ Green?  He missed 23 of 48 games (48%) over those 3 seasons.  Could not having your number #1 receiver have something to do with a drop-off in production?

When you're stuck behind a bad OL and you're missing your biggest threat that's going to affect the QB play.
What about the rushinng game?  How much help were they, in taking pressure off of the pass game?

In 2017 we averaged 3.6 yards a carry, and only had 6 rushing TD's.  That's unbelievablely bad.  In 2019 we only averaged 3.9 yards a carry and only had 9 rushing TD's, which is also pretty damn bad.

What about the defense?  What affect does that have on the passing game?  Well, here's our team ranks in total yards allowed over that span...

2019 - 28th
2018 - 32nd
2017 - 17th

Call me crazy, but I would think a defense that is bad is going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on the offense, and as a result the QB.  This leads to a lot of time playing from behind, and being forced to make throws and call plays you may not if you're weren't constantly playing catch-up.

So now we've got a QB in Dalton, whose OL has gone to shit, whose #1 receiving option is often hurt, with a below average run game, and well below average defense... What QB thrives in that envioroment?  Show me a QB that doesn't see a decrease in stats knowing the above.

The fact of the matter is it is a team game.  Every position affects every other position.  You can't just blame one player, or not account for everything that surrounds the situation.

When Andy was surrounded by above average talent he was an above average QB.  When it was below average, he followed suit.  The reality is he did not just magically turn into a terrible QB overnight.  Nor was he suddenly magically among the game's elite in 2015. 

Andy Dalton was a decent and capable starter.  Not great, no. But far from terrible.  As the team became worse and worse his stats became worse and worse.  He has a 9 year career to disect, it's completely unfair to cherry-pick a 3 year window and use it to define his skill level. 

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#6
I've seen AJ Green and Auden Tate make some catches that
Defy logic.
We don't know if it was the design of the route etc that would
Make Green and Tate have to contort their body
I think every WR has had to make a catch that he had to extend
His body twist it etc
But some guys like Carson Palmer were good at throwing
Passes where Henry Housh Walter Washington
Where they didn't have to turn into Lynn Swann.
Andy's issue was when the play broke down
Then he broke down. He could not improvise
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#7
Great receivers can overcome bad QB play. Just look at Fitzgerald in Arizona.

What a bad QB does however is reduce the chances that WR has to make plays. Good QBs extend plays, go through the progressions and find the open guy. Bad QBs panic after their 1st, sometimes 2nd read when maybe the 4th option was wide open for a TD. Great QBs are able to identify more opportunities than a subpar QB and this makes the entire team better.

So, to your original question, it’s the QB.
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#8
(05-21-2020, 12:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All the WR threads and threads about player stats or production over the past several days have got me thinking  Hmm

And we've been through this topic numerous times over the years. But just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players ?

I mean let's face it, and I know bad to horrible Oline and suspect play calling/scheme is a factor but set that aside, we haven't had good QB play the last several seasons.

Andy Dalton has the bulk of the snaps the last four seasons but going back a little further there's been a sprinkling of McCarron, Driskel, and Finley and they've been bad as well. This isn't just about bashing Dalton, but his stats even when not under pressure just are not good.

AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.

How many times have we seen Mixon have to go backwards, pick a ball out of the grass, stop, and so on to catch a simple swing pass ? How many times has Auden Tate or A.J. Green had to make circus nearly inhuman leaps, twists and turns to haul in a pass ? How many times has 6'5" or somethin Tyler Eifert had to catch a ball at the extreme top of his ability ?

How many open receivers close to the sideline and the ball is 5 yards out of bounds ? over their heads ? at their feet ? Back shoulder throws late or to far to the inside ? on and on

How much does Burrow change this ? How many more yards would Joe Mixon have if he could catch a screen pass where he's being thrown open ? How many more YAC would Tate have had if he didn't have to leap over an SUV doing a back flip to catch the ball ? What could Ross have done if he was hit in stride a bit more ? What if A.J. didn't have to break stride or stop to catch a deep ball ?

The PFF rankings holic posted have several of the top rated receiving corps lined up with top QB's, coincidence ? Our RB's stats in the passing game have died lately, why ?

I can't wait to see what happens with the receiving corps in the future ?
I don't think you can nail down what your asking to just one position. WRs drop passes that should have been caught or they tip it and it gets intercepted. Your asking a lot if you expect your QB to make a perfect pass every time they throw. People slip and that also throws the play out of wack. It pretty much takes all 11 players on offense every play to make the execution of the play work every time.
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#9
(05-21-2020, 01:39 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I've seen AJ Green and Auden Tate make some catches that
Defy logic.
We don't know if it was the design of the route etc that would
Make Green and Tate have to contort their body
I think every WR has had to make a catch that he had to extend
His body twist it etc
But some guys like Carson Palmer were good at throwing
Passes where Henry Housh Walter Washington
Where they didn't have to turn into Lynn Swann.
Andy's issue was when the play broke down
Then he broke down. He could not improvise


Yeah right. Chad never had to make any tough catches.

Hilarious


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#10
(05-21-2020, 01:42 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Great receivers can overcome bad QB play. Just look at Fitzgerald in Arizona.

What a bad QB does however is reduce the chances that WR has to make plays. Good QBs extend plays, go through the progressions and find the open guy. Bad QBs panic after their 1st, sometimes 2nd read when maybe the 4th option was wide open for a TD. Great QBs are able to identify more opportunities than a subpar QB and this makes the entire team better.

So, to your original question, it’s the QB.

How do you expect a QB to get to the 3rd and 4th read when the O-Line barely gives them a chance to get to the first 2 reads? QB can't do anything positive when they don't have time to do anything at all.
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#11
(05-21-2020, 02:51 PM)cinci4life Wrote: How do you expect a QB to get to the 3rd and 4th read when the O-Line barely gives them a chance to get to the first 2 reads? QB can't do anything positive when they don't have time to do anything at all.

Roll out of the pocket. Scramble. Make an off-schedule play.
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#12
The truth is it is BOTH.

Poor O-line play, weak receivers, a lousy run game, and bad coaches makes EVERY QB look worse. Even the best QBs have up and down seasons based on the talent around them.

And poor QB play hurts the receivers production.

So the argument becomes about perception. The people who have never liked Andy will claim that all his completions were due to circus catches and no other QB has receivers that make circus catches. It is silly. Anyone who watches football knows that ALL QBs have problems completing deep passes and no QB always hits his receivers in stride.

Perfect example of this is the claim that Dalton had more passes batted down at the line of scrimmage than most other QBs. Lots of people make that claim, but it just is not true. Football outsiders keeps track of the QBs that have the most passes batted down and Dalton was rarely among the league leaders. But the people who don't like Dalton will keep claiming it is true because all they see is the negative and they ignore anything positive.


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#13
(05-21-2020, 03:12 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Roll out of the pocket. Scramble. Make an off-schedule play.


have you ever seen the numbers for ALL QBs under pressure?  Every single one of them is worse.  


So it only makes sense that if a QB is under pressure more then his production will suffer.

Do you disagree with this?


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#14
(05-21-2020, 03:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: have you ever seen the numbers for ALL QBs under pressure?  Every single one of them is worse.  


So it only makes sense that if a QB is under pressure more then his production will suffer.

Do you disagree with this?

No, I don’t disagree with that.

I was asked what I expect the QB to do when his line doesn’t give him time and that was my answer.

The notion that a QB can’t do anything positive when there is pressure is a silly one. Ryan Tannehill and Josh Allen turned would be losses into 1st downs with their legs last year, and I wouldn’t say those two are all world QBs either. Not all QBs find a way to do those types of things.
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#15
(05-21-2020, 03:52 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The notion that a QB can’t do anything positive when there is pressure is a silly one. 


The notion that Dalton never makes plays under pressure is a silly one also, don't you agree?


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#16
(05-21-2020, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The notion that Dalton never makes plays under pressure is a silly one also, don't you agree?

Ummm ya? Did I ever say he didn’t?

Every NFL QB makes off schedule plays, they wouldn’t be in the NFL if they couldn’t. Some make more than others. Dalton is known for his pre-snap quick read skills but he doesn’t make as many off schedule plays as some other QBs in this league.

I didn’t even mention Dalton in this thread. I have been speaking very generally. Your Dalton defense tirade is silly when the person you go after hasn’t even mentioned Dalton.
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#17
(05-21-2020, 04:33 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I didn’t even mention Dalton in this thread. I have been speaking very generally. Your Dalton defense tirade is silly when the person you go after hasn’t even mentioned Dalton.


When the OP is about the Dalton and everyone else is talking about Dalton it is reasonable to assume that you were also.


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#18
(05-21-2020, 04:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When the OP is about the Dalton and everyone else is talking about Dalton it is reasonable to assume that you were also.

OPs question was

“just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players?”

Very general question that I addressed with no direct relation to Dalton. I know you think everyone is out to bash Dalton in every post, but it just isn’t that way. You’re a little paranoid.
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#19
We haven't been healthy at WR since the 15 season and we haven't had a decent offensive line since the 16 season. So I would say injury(@ WR) and bad personal decisions(OL) hurt Andy more than Andy hurt the team.
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#20
(05-21-2020, 04:47 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: OPs question was

“just how much bearing does QB play, accuracy, beating the blitz and completing passes, hitting guys in stride, and so on effect the stats of the skill players?”

Very general question that I addressed with no direct relation to Dalton. I know you think everyone is out to bash Dalton in every post, but it just isn’t that way. You’re a little paranoid.

Gee I wonder why you didn't quote the entire OP?

Couldn't possibly be these parts could it?

(05-21-2020, 12:27 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I mean let's face it, and I know bad to horrible Oline and suspect play calling/scheme is a factor but set that aside, we haven't had good QB play the last several seasons.

Andy Dalton has the bulk of the snaps the last four seasons but going back a little further there's been a sprinkling of McCarron, Driskel, and Finley and they've been bad as well. This isn't just about bashing Dalton, but his stats even when not under pressure just are not good.

AD has just over a 60% completion percentage over the last 3 seasons and a QB rating of just over 84 ! I haven't looked up the others but I'm pretty sure it's not good either.

How many times have we seen Mixon have to go backwards, pick a ball out of the grass, stop, and so on to catch a simple swing pass ? How many times has Auden Tate or A.J. Green had to make circus nearly inhuman leaps, twists and turns to haul in a pass ? How many times has 6'5" or somethin Tyler Eifert had to catch a ball at the extreme top of his ability ?

How many open receivers close to the sideline and the ball is 5 yards out of bounds ? over their heads ? at their feet ? Back shoulder throws late or to far to the inside ? on and on

How much does Burrow change this ? How many more yards would Joe Mixon have if he could catch a screen pass where he's being thrown open ? How many more YAC would Tate have had if he didn't have to leap over an SUV doing a back flip to catch the ball ? What could Ross have done if he was hit in stride a bit more ? What if A.J. didn't have to break stride or stop to catch a deep ball ?

The PFF rankings holic posted have several of the top rated receiving corps lined up with top QB's, coincidence ? Our RB's stats in the passing game have died lately, why ?

I can't wait to see what happens with the receiving corps in the future ?


The OP was clearly about the Bengals and Andy Dalton.  

Everyone else was talking about Dalton.

It was not unreasonable to assume you were also talking about Dalton.


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