Question For Pro-Choice People

[jj22]

(06-13-2019, 01:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps you've failed to read/ignored my stance.

"shocking"

Not really.

I have repeatedly stated if the Father was to invoke his parental rights he must show he is financially and mentally able to rear the child.  

So that's a no. You're not willing to help.

That would have been much easier to state.

Why if folks aren't willing to help people are they so willing to tell them how to live their lives? Who thinks this is cool? I mean clearly a lot of people do, but that's just unfortunate.

Stay out of peoples business, mind your own, and stay out of peoples bedrooms. I know that's asking too much this day and age, but how much better as people would we be if folks stayed true to the old way of life.

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2019, 01:17 AM)JSR18 Wrote: Also, nobody appointed women God-like to decide who lives and who dies.

I'm also saying I can be pro-death penalty because most of the bags of trash that rape, pillage and murder deserve it...

So just to be clear....


Woman deciding what to do with her own body = usurping the power of God.

You deciding which criminals should die = carrying out your God appointed duty.

[JSR18]

(06-14-2019, 08:14 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Innocent or not does make a difference since your argument was that those being killed aren't innocent... You're contradicting yourself. 

I'm not contradicting myself. Re-read my whole comment. Nowhere does the word innocent appear...

[JSR18]

(06-14-2019, 12:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So just to be clear....


Woman deciding what to do with her own body = usurping the power of God.

You deciding which criminals should die = carrying out your God appointed duty.

No, you're not clear.

A woman deciding to kill her baby or not is playing GOD.
A judge and jury deciding to kill a deserving criminal is carrying out an aspect our judicial system

Nowhere in either of these scenario's am I deciding anything...

[BmorePat87]

(06-10-2019, 06:13 PM)JSR18 Wrote: Absolutely not! Abortions and Death penalties are apples and oranges.

Abortion is the killing of innocent  unborn babies who don't have a choice.

Death penalty is the killing of some guilty degenerate criminal who has a choice and screws up any way...

(06-14-2019, 01:46 PM)JSR18 Wrote:  I'm not contradicting myself. Re-read my whole comment. Nowhere does the word innocent appear...

Your argument was that people killed with the death penalty are not innocent and made a choice. That's not 100% true. 

[JSR18]

(06-14-2019, 02:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Your argument was that people killed with the death penalty are not innocent and made a choice. That's not 100% true. 

I've moved on from the innocent comment. Some people couldn't comprehend the aspect of an unborn baby being innocent or that I couldn't give 2 damns about some heinous criminal possibly being "innocent".

I've taken a different path...

[Vas Deferens]

(06-14-2019, 02:40 PM)JSR18 Wrote: I've moved on from the innocent comment. Some people couldn't comprehend the aspect of an unborn baby being innocent or that I couldn't give 2 damns about some heinous criminal possibly being "innocent".

I've taken a different path...

by definition, someone who is wrongly convicted is NOT a criminal.  how are they heinous?

the disconnect you're putting on full display here is quite telling.  

[jj22]

The Bible, which I know the "religious right" doesn't really go by anymore states in the 10 commandments thou shall not kill. Periodt.

I don't think come judgment day "the judge told me to" is a legit excuse. Many people who put that needle in an arm is going to hell. We as Christians should never want that.

If you are against one form of murder for religious reasons then you should be against all forms of murder.

Too many excuses when it comes to being ok with killing folks you think should be killed.

[BmorePat87]

(06-14-2019, 02:40 PM)JSR18 Wrote: I've moved on from the innocent comment. Some people couldn't comprehend the aspect of an unborn baby being innocent or that I couldn't give 2 damns about some heinous criminal possibly being "innocent".

I've taken a different path...

So when presented with evidence you changed your reasoning rather than your position? 

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2019, 01:51 PM)JSR18 Wrote: Nowhere in either of these scenario's am I deciding anything...

You are deciding that anointing the courts with the power of God is okay.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-13-2019, 07:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Certainly not a large portion of the total population on death row, but the fact that 165 people in the last 45 years have found themselves exonerated after being placed on death row is enough to realize that the death penalty makes little sense, especially considering the substantial costs associated with it. 

As I said, if you're concerned with innocent people dying, you cannot be pro death penalty. 

in 45 years, so how many tried and actually found innocent in the last 10 years (cases after 2009)?


Anyways, I would limit it to the most severe cases, such as people that have murdered/raped multiple people and the proof is pretty solid.
So that should end your argument. People that are that far gone are not going to reform no matter how much you try.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-14-2019, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are deciding that anointing the courts with the power of God is okay.

Isn't it Governments Job to protect it's citizens? or is that playing God too?

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2019, 04:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Isn't it Governments Job to protect it's citizens? or is that playing God too?

Lots of governments protect their citizens with no death penalty.

In fact only one other industrialized democracy on earth has the death penalty.

[fredtoast]

I am starting to see an interesting pattern here.

The same people who believe in an infallible perfect god also believe in an infallible perfect criminal justice system. I guess that is what happens when your beliefs are controlled by "faith" instead of "facts".

If we really do have to stand before the Lord in judgement it will be interesting to hear these death penalty supporters trying to argue "Well, God, you know it wasn't really A LOT of innocent people that were put to death, so I figured it was okay."

[BFritz21]

Ok, I believe that, with today's technology and resources, it's almost impossible to execute someone that can later be found innocent.

The last person executed that was later found innocent was convicted in 2002 I believe.

So, if you wiped out all previous previous sentences to death (unless there is video evidence or some other irrefutable evidence), would all of you people using the death penalty argument change your belief on this and agree that abortion is wrong?

[BmorePat87]

(06-14-2019, 04:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: in 45 years, so how many tried and actually found innocent in the last 10 years (cases after 2009)?


Anyways, I would limit it to the most severe cases, such as people that have murdered/raped multiple people and the proof is pretty solid.
So that should end your argument. People that are that far gone are not going to reform no matter how much you try.

In the last decade? Like 25 or so. 

For this reason alone, I cannot see a reason to support it. When you factor in the fact that it costs more than life in prison, it makes even less sense to support it. 

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2019, 04:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ok, I believe that, with today's technology and resources, it's almost impossible to execute someone that can later be found innocent.

Who cares if they can be "later found innocent"?  The fact is that it is still very possible for an innocent person to be given the death penalty.  For every innocent person who was "later found innocent" I am sure there were many more innocent people executed who were never exonerated. 

The death penalty and abortion are two totally separate issues, I just find it funny how the same people often take the same side in both of these arguments.  Like I said before, it seems that many of the same people who believe in an infallible God also believe in an infallible government.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2019, 09:46 AM)jj22 Wrote: So that's a no. You're not willing to help.

That would have been much easier to state.

Why if folks aren't willing to help people are they so willing to tell them how to live their lives? Who thinks this is cool? I mean clearly a lot of people do, but that's just unfortunate.

Stay out of peoples business, mind your own, and stay out of peoples bedrooms. I know that's asking too much this day and age, but how much better as people would we be if folks stayed true to the old way of life.

Not in anyone's bedroom; you read the wrong bumper sticker. And I've clearly and repeatedly  addressed the financial aspect in my stance. 

Of course I'm willing to help. I've often said tax me equally as the next man and I hope some of those dollars go to social programs that help needy parents care for their child(ren)

Just so I understand the point you're trying to make: If someone takes public subsidies we should be able to tell them what to do? 

[JSR18]

(06-14-2019, 06:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who cares if they can be "later found innocent"?  The fact is that it is still very possible for an innocent person to be given the death penalty.  For every innocent person who was "later found innocent" I am sure there were many more innocent people executed who were never exonerated. 

The death penalty and abortion are two totally separate issues, I just find it funny how the same people often take the same side in both of these arguments.  Like I said before, it seems that many of the same people who believe in an infallible God also believe in an infallible government.

Yes Fred! That's what happens every time a woman aborts a baby!!!! 

[Benton]

(06-14-2019, 04:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ok, I believe that, with today's technology and resources, it's almost impossible to execute someone that can later be found innocent.

The last person executed that was later found innocent was convicted in 2002 I believe.

So, if you wiped out all previous previous sentences to death (unless there is video evidence or some other irrefutable evidence), would all of you people using the death penalty argument change your belief on this and agree that abortion is wrong?

https://www.apnews.com/6d15a393192c4bb9a6b2df2202b63931
https://www.foxnews.com/us/murder-conviction-overturned-north-carolina-man-released

https://www.dailyastorian.com/news/local/appeals-court-overturns-murder-convictions-for-seaside-man/article_63de98fa-4c20-11e9-833e-6b76dbceae75.html
https://www.texastribune.org/2018/12/19/steven-mark-chaney-murder-conviction-overturned/

It's incredibly possible for someone later found innocent to be convicted of murder. In Kentucky, we convicted a guy simply because he owned a four wheeler and a hammer and the victims (likely killed by a hammer) had complained about four wheeler riders.