RUMOR - Biden to announce cancellation of student debt

[Dill]

(08-24-2022, 10:57 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: But if i already paid MY own college bills why do i have to pay for someone elses.
Am i Getting a refund on my Tuition paid?

The issue here is really how we, as a nation, conceive of the "Public Good."

If you went to a public university, you probably paid a greatly increased tuition, compared to students of the 50s and 60s,
because thousands of Republicans in your state were asking "why should I pay someone else's tuition?" And at least SOME of 
the cost of your degree was paid by "someone else." 

One of the primary goals behind the creation of public higher ed in the 19th century was not "profit," but to advance a state's economy.
So education was considered a public good, like roads, for which everyone could be taxed. Some would benefit more,
but EVERYONE would receive some benefit. E.g., someone who never used public roads would still benefit from lower
costs in moving goods and the like. I don't know what you got your degree in, but it's not a stretch to view that as creating a
value for others in your state as well. By design, then, some of the extra wealth your degree generated would go back to helping
give others the same chance (i.e., if you went to a public university).

A state full of engineers and knowledgeable agriculturalists would benefit everyone in the state, and the nation. Hence, e.g., the Morrill Act of 1862 which granted public lands to states for the creation of public universities, which charged less than private in order to create access for white middle class families. This was, of course, a "progressive" view. States and counties which did NOT much prize this notion of public good became national backwaters, especially in the South, and especially in areas where slavery was most intensively practiced, and which remain today the most hostile towards any supposed taxation for public good.

[*Nately120*]

(08-24-2022, 10:57 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: But if i already paid MY own college bills why do i have to pay for someone elses.
Am i Getting a refund on my Tuition paid?

That's just living in a society for ya, I guess.  You could spend all day asking why you have to pay for X when you don't need X.

[Belsnickel]

(08-24-2022, 11:49 AM)Dill Wrote: The issue here is really how we, as a nation, conceive of the "Public Good."

If you went to a public university, you probably paid a greatly increased tuition, compared to students of the 50s and 60s,
because thousands of Republicans in your state were asking "why should I pay someone else's tuition?" And at least SOME of 
the cost of your degree was paid by "someone else." 

One of the primary goals behind the creation of public higher ed in the 19th century was not "profit," but to advance a state's economy.
So education was considered a public good, like roads, for which everyone could be taxed. Some would benefit more,
but EVERYONE would receive some benefit. E.g., someone who never used public roads would still benefit from lower
costs in moving goods and the like. I don't know what you got your degree in, but it's not a stretch to view that as creating a
value for others in your state as well. By design, then, some of the extra wealth your degree generated would go back to helping
give others the same chance (i.e., if you went to a public university).

A state full of engineers and knowledgeable agriculturalists would benefit everyone in the state, and the nation. Hence, e.g., the Morrill Act of 1862 which granted public lands to states for the creation of public universities, which charged less than private in order to create access for white middle class families. This was, of course, a "progressive" view. States and counties which did NOT much prize this notion of public good became national backwaters, especially in the South, and especially in areas where slavery was most intensively practiced, and which remain today the most hostile towards any supposed taxation for public good.

Get that Jeffersonian nonsense out of here! 

[*pally*]

(08-24-2022, 10:05 AM)Dill Wrote: Pally, I usually agree with you, but not this time, at least with your assessment of what is driving college costs higher.

People often view universities as "businesses" which simply respond to market signals. That's not quite true, especially for public universities.

The most direct driver of tuition rise, especially in public universities, is their steady defunding. 

E.g., in most states, public universities cannot decide their own tuition rates, like corporations charging whatever the market will bear. Rather, state legislatures do that, and also determine their budgets. Since the 1980s, there has been a concerted effort on the part of the American right to make universities more and more market dependent, in part by eroding tenure and academic freedom--thus undermining an institutional source of "leftism." From the 60s onward, Republicans began defunding universities and pushing business "alliances" to make up for the lost income, and to make their research programs more responsive to business needs and ideology.

There are other drivers as well, to the degree that universities, while not businesses, have become more and more like them, competing for students with brand new dorms with student "suites" and exercise gyms. Also, Administrations have become more top heavy, in some cases to the point that administrators outnumber faculty by 2-1.  But first and foremost is the public defunding.

Oh come one, no one is supposed to disagree with me...lol.

I think we actually can agree that there are a myriad of reasons contributing to tuition increases.  The challenge comes in when the schools are encouraging loans to pay for these increased costs and the students get them, the schools, in turn, have no incentive to control those costs.  That is why the conversations cannot be just about paying for the "product" but that is the only side that is being addressed.  As long as the end user gets their money, they can get away with charging whatever they want.

[Belsnickel]

(08-24-2022, 10:05 AM)Dill Wrote: Pally, I usually agree with you, but not this time, at least with your assessment of what is driving college costs higher.

People often view universities as "businesses" which simply respond to market signals. That's not quite true, especially for public universities.

The most direct driver of tuition rise, especially in public universities, is their steady defunding. 

E.g., in most states, public universities cannot decide their own tuition rates, like corporations charging whatever the market will bear. Rather, state legislatures do that, and also determine their budgets. Since the 1980s, there has been a concerted effort on the part of the American right to make universities more and more market dependent, in part by eroding tenure and academic freedom--thus undermining an institutional source of "leftism." From the 60s onward, Republicans began defunding universities and pushing business "alliances" to make up for the lost income, and to make their research programs more responsive to business needs and ideology.

There are other drivers as well, to the degree that universities, while not businesses, have become more and more like them, competing for students with brand new dorms with student "suites" and exercise gyms. Also, Administrations have become more top heavy, in some cases to the point that administrators outnumber faculty by 2-1.  But first and foremost is the public defunding.

So, I will comment a bit on this. I don't know if schools can't set their own tuition in most places. I haven't really researched it in other states. How it works here is that we have a cap on how much we can increase tuition rates but each college/university has rates set by their governor-appointed Board of Visitors. State legislatures also don't usually set the budgets for schools, but they do allocate the funding. It's a fine line of a difference, but it is one.

Now, top-heavy administrations and defunding are absolutely on point. I want to expand a little on the "competition" for students you mention. That is absolutely what it is, but it goes far beyond what most people even think about. Going to college is considered to be a more holistic experience than it was 40-50 years ago. It isn't just about the classes but the overall student life. We rank nationally for our food, and that's a point of pride for us. The options for student recreation, student activities, etc., etc. All of these things are a part of what universities do to try to improve the life of the student to draw them in. But it definitely costs money and it's what the market demands.

[Belsnickel]

(08-24-2022, 12:19 PM)pally Wrote: Oh come one, no one is supposed to disagree with me...lol.

I think we actually can agree that there are a myriad of reasons contributing to tuition increases.  The challenge comes in when the schools are encouraging loans to pay for these increased costs and the students get them, the schools, in turn, have no incentive to control those costs.  That is why the conversations cannot be just about paying for the "product" but that is the only side that is being addressed.  As long as the end user gets their money, they can get away with charging whatever they want.

Most schools don't encourage loans. The standard practice in every financial aid office I know is to encourage borrowing the least amount possible.

[Mickeypoo]

(08-23-2022, 07:39 PM)Nately120 Wrote: $10k isn't exactly letting people off the hook, though.  

People are allowed to be all butthurt about this if it goes through, but I'd wager if you have your loans paid off you probably also had the luxury of lower tuition rates and interest rates than some of the other people who are "lucky enough" to get this relief did.  

It's hard to believe until I think about it, but I was done with college when people who are now going into college were being born...I'm probably old and outta touch.

Student loan debt = optional with predatory lending

Credit card debt = optional with predatory lending

Will people who earn <125k also get up to 10k credit card forgiveness?

[CJD]

(08-24-2022, 12:45 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Student loan debt = optional with predatory lending

Credit card debt = optional with predatory lending

Will people who earn <125k also get up to 10k credit card forgiveness?

Now we're talking! More government spending! More handouts! It's awesome that conservatives are finally coming around!

[*Nately120*]

(08-24-2022, 12:45 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Student loan debt = optional with predatory lending

Credit card debt = optional with predatory lending

Will people who earn <125k also get up to 10k credit card forgiveness?

Call me a commie, but I'm not sure how optional debt is in our society these days.  Trust me, I spend a lot of my day sifting through student loans, medial bills, and bankruptcies. 

[Belsnickel]

(08-24-2022, 01:10 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Call me a commie, but I'm not sure how optional debt is in our society these days.  Trust me, I spend a lot of my day sifting through student loans, medial bills, and bankruptcies. 

With the way wages have fallen behind inflation, debt isn't optional for a large segment of the population.

[*Nately120*]

(08-24-2022, 01:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: With the way wages have fallen behind inflation, debt isn't optional for a large segment of the population.

I'm not crying foul, but I know people who got interest free loans from family members for stuff and they admit that it's the way to go if you can swing it.

[Belsnickel]

(08-24-2022, 01:14 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not crying foul, but I know people who got interest free loans from family members for stuff and they admit that it's the way to go if you can swing it.

Yeah, must be nice for those that have such people in their lives.

[KillerGoose]

It's official. $10k forgiveness for non-Pell grant recipients. $20k for Pell grant recipients. $125k limit for individuals, $250k limit for joint income.

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1562462774969581570

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-24-2022, 09:09 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Who is paying for all this free college?

Same people who paid for the tax cuts for the rich back in 2017.

[*Nately120*]

(08-24-2022, 01:25 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It's official. $10k forgiveness for non-Pell grant recipients. $20k for Pell grant recipients. $125k limit for individuals, $250k limit for joint income.

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1562462774969581570

Dark Brandon strikes again. 

[NATI BENGALS]

So I’m reading more than half of the people with student loan debt owe $20k or less.

This is going to be a giant relief for a lot of people

[Mickeypoo]

(08-24-2022, 01:00 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Now we're talking! More government spending! More handouts! It's awesome that conservatives are finally coming around!

That's funny!

I was just making a point and I personally have no credit card debt.  Where does it end?  Why should student loans be forgiven?  It was optional; a free choice.  Heck, why not just pay everybody's debt off no matter what it is?  It's just pure political pandering and vote buying.

I want significantly less Gov and Gov assistance.  

I'm not a Conservative.

[Mickeypoo]

(08-24-2022, 01:40 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So I’m reading more than half of the people with student loan debt owe $20k or less.

This is going to be a giant relief for a lot of people

But why do they get that relief?   It was a free, optional choice they made.  Why not 10k for a car loan or mortgage or credit card or personal loan, etc.?  

Would that not also be a huge relief for those people?

[Arturo Bandini]

(08-24-2022, 10:57 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: But if i already paid MY own college bills why do i have to pay for someone elses.
Am i Getting a refund on my Tuition paid?

Life is not only about you. Get to the banker who crooked you. 

[*Nately120*]

(08-24-2022, 02:05 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: But why do they get that relief?   It was a free, optional choice they made.  Why not 10k for a car loan or mortgage or credit card or personal loan, etc.?  

Would that not also be a huge relief for those people?

I feel like there have been a number of proposed initiatives to combat or curb predatory lending and life-crippling interest rates, education and otherwise.  Methinks they tend to be labeled as government interfering with the free market, though.