"Racism"

[Bengalzona]

The word "racism" in the title is in quotations for a reason.

What constitutes racism in your mind?

I've heard some of my friends on the right side of the aisle claim that the word is bandied about and slung freely by those on the left side. My friends on the left side of the aisle fully believe we are in a time where racism is running rampant.

I can see both points of view to a degree. And, like many things, I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

Part of the problem I see is in the definition of what behavior is racist. Is someone who exhibits racial biases and stereotypes necessarily racist? Can they exhibit those types of behaviors without being necessarily a racist?

Think about those questions for a second. The Google definition of "racist" reads like this:

Quote:rac·ist
ˈrāsəst/
noun
noun: racist; plural noun: racists

   1.
   a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
   "the comments have led to her being called a racist"
   synonyms: racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More
   "he was exposed as a racist"
   (racially) discriminatory, racialist, prejudiced, bigoted
   "a racist society"
adjective
noun: racist; plural noun: racists; adjective: racist

   1.
   showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another.
   "we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"

I think that is a pretty good definition and in line with what I think a racist is. But my question is, can someone have racial biases and stereotypes and still not necessarily be a racist?

I think that question is not so easily answered since I'm told that everyone has some degree of racial bias and everyone stereotypes to some degree. If that is true, at what point does it cross the line into actual racism? Or do you feel that there is no line between the two?

What are your thoughts?

[GMDino]

(03-14-2018, 01:07 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: The word "racism" in the title is in quotations for a reason.

What constitutes racism in your mind?

I've heard some of my friends on the right side of the aisle claim that the word is bandied about and slung freely by those on the left side. My friends on the left side of the aisle fully believe we are in a time where racism is running rampant.

I can see both points of view to a degree. And, like many things, I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

Part of the problem I see is in the definition of what behavior is racist. Is someone who exhibits racial biases and stereotypes necessarily racist? Can they exhibit those types of behaviors without being necessarily a racist?

Think about those questions for a second. The Google definition of "racist" reads like this:


I think that is a pretty good definition and in line with what I think a racist is. But my question is, can someone have racial biases and stereotypes and still not necessarily be a racist?

I think that question is not so easily answered since I'm told that everyone has some degree of racial bias and everyone stereotypes to some degree. If that is true, at what point does it cross the line into actual racism? Or do you feel that there is no line between the two?

What are your thoughts?

I use to say yes they could.  I work with and know plenty of people who would fit that definition of racist that don't think are racist as much as they are ignorant.  But now I'd just say they are racist.  I might still like them otherwise but they are racist.

Of course I've also had discussion with people who said you can't make an ethnic joke without being a racist.  I disagree.  But that is a discussion on comedy and intent versus serious statements on others.

I also find racism entirely stupid.  I choose to dislike people on an individual basis based on their personal behavior rather than in large groups.

Now if they are marching in a large group and are in agreement with it they will get painted with that broad brush.  Everyone at the cross burning is a racist IMHO.  

It's complicated.

[Arturo Bandini]

Is calling people from other countries "illegal aliens" racist ?

In my mind, it is clearly but maybe I don't get the subtelty of this.

[Belsnickel]

I am someone on the left and I see our society as very racist. However, I don't call individuals racist, but rather behaviors and systems. We like to say that we live in an age of colorblindness, and to be fair we do know that fewer and fewer people see discrimination based on race as acceptable. What this has done rather than eliminate racism, though, is make it implicit rather than explicit. We also tend to create these models of personhood around race that we then exclude people we know personally from.

All of this is to say that I view racism as discrimination based on race. I just don't apply the term to people but rather the actions they take part in that racialize other individuals. By using the term for an individual it is an otherization of that person in a similar way that racialization does.

[Belsnickel]

(03-14-2018, 01:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is calling people from other countries "illegal aliens" racist ?

In my mind, it is clearly but maybe I don't get the subtelty of this.

If you someone that looks similar to someone from another country because of some perceived similarity based on appearance or behavior, and people from that country are perceived as being the source of undocumented migrants, and you call them an illegal alien without any evidence to support they are, then yes, that is a racist behavior.

I know I just made it very complicated and it may seem unnecessarily so, but this is a very nuanced topic.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-14-2018, 01:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is calling people from other countries "illegal aliens" racist ?

In my mind, it is clearly but maybe I don't get the subtelty of this.

Calling them illegal when they are indeed illegal is accurate. Calling them illegal when they are here legally is inaccurate.

Neither is racist. And this is a perfect example of why this is a fantastic thread. I have wanted to make this thread for a while now and haven’t because of the usual issues.

[StLucieBengal]

You can have some bias and not be a racist. You have to separate the action from the person. Personal preference is not necessarily racist.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2018, 01:07 PM)Bengalzona Wrote:  But my question is, can someone have racial biases and stereotypes and still not necessarily be a racist?

I think that question is not so easily answered since I'm told that everyone has some degree of racial bias and everyone stereotypes to some degree. If that is true, at what point does it cross the line into actual racism? Or do you feel that there is no line between the two?

What are your thoughts?

Some racial stereotypes are true.

They only become a problem when an individual judges another individual based on a racial stereotype.

No one can watch track and field or the NBA and deny that genetically African Americans as a group are athletically superior to white people.  But you can't just randomly pick a white guy and a black guy and claim the black guy is a better athlete.  That would be racist.

Even when you adjust for socioeconomic variables like income African Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes and have multiple children by with multiple mothers.  That is probably a cultural issue more than a genetic issue, but it is a true stereotype of a race.  That being said, you still can't say an individual black person is more likely to be a criminal than an individual white person.

When I meet a black person I don't fear him more than a white person because I know there are plenty of crazy violent white people.  I don't treat them any differently until I know more about them. 

But on the other hand the African American community needs to acknowledge the problems they have within their own culture if they ever want to fix them.   The glorification of gun violence and misogyny in gangster rap music is damaging their entire race.  Lots of white people listen to gangster rap music also, but it is not influencing and shaping our culture the way it is in the African American community.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2018, 01:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is calling people from other countries "illegal aliens"  racist ?

In my mind, it is clearly but maybe I don't get the subtelty of this.

It is not racist if they are really illegal aliens.

But if you just call every foreign person you see an illegal alien then it is racist.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-14-2018, 02:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not racist if they are really illegal aliens.

But if you just call every foreign person you see an illegal alien then it is racist.

Ok.

I don't see your point but whatever.

[Belsnickel]

(03-14-2018, 02:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not racist if they are really illegal aliens.

But if you just call every foreign person you see an illegal alien then it is racist.

I disagree. If I look at someone and say they are an illegal alien based upon my perception of their race, then that is racist. Even if they in fact are an undocumented immigrant, because I made this claim based upon their race it is a racist assertion. Now, if I know for another reason that they are an undocumented immigrant, then it isn't racist to call them that.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2018, 03:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I disagree. If I look at someone and say they are an illegal alien based upon my perception of their race, then that is racist. Even if they in fact are an undocumented immigrant, because I made this claim based upon their race it is a racist assertion. Now, if I know for another reason that they are an undocumented immigrant, then it isn't racist to call them that.

Actually we are saying the same thing.  I guess I did not phrase it properly.

[*bfine32*]

(03-14-2018, 01:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is calling people from other countries "illegal aliens"  racist ?

In my mind, it is clearly but maybe I don't get the subtelty of this.

Like other labels  it depends on instead; however the phrase in and of itself is not racist 

[Arturo Bandini]

Is it at least offensive ?

[*michaelsean*]

(03-14-2018, 01:43 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is calling people from other countries "illegal aliens"  racist ?

In my mind, it is clearly but maybe I don't get the subtelty of this.

I don't see how it's racist unless you determined it due to their race.

[*michaelsean*]

In answer OP, if someone doesn't like people of a different race, I mean obviously you are using race as a determiner, but we have thousands of years of not liking/trusting people who are different from us. So I don't know. Racism or bigotry.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2018, 04:01 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is it at least offensive ?

It is no more offensive than calling a thief a thief.  And it has nothing to do with race because all races can be illegal aliens.

What term would you consider less offensive for people who are here illegally?

[GMDino]

(03-14-2018, 04:17 PM)michaelsean Wrote: In answer   OP, if someone doesn't like people of a different race, I mean obviously you are using race as a determiner, but we have thousands of years of not liking/trusting people who are different from us.  So I don't know.  Racism or bigotry.

If we are going to use the actual deifition of words then bigotry doesn't work.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigotry

Quote:Definition of bigotry

plural bigotries
1: obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices : the state of mind of a [/url]bigot 

• overcoming his own bigotry
  

2: acts or beliefs characteristic of a [url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot]bigot 

• racial bigotry
  

 

• will not tolerate bigotry in our organization
  

If you don't like black people "just because" or because they are "all lazy" that's racist in my mind.  

[*michaelsean*]

(03-14-2018, 04:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: If we are going to use the actual deifition of words then bigotry doesn't work.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigotry



If you don't like black people "just because" or because they are "all lazy" that's racist in my mind.  

Devotion to one's prejudices.  But I don't care what anyone calls something.  It's when it's applied because of assumed racism, prejudice or bigotry.  For instance, if you say that the reason someone wants to keep people from entering the country illegally is because they are brown, with nothing but your assumption, then that's no better. I think that type of thing is where people get offended.  But what we actually call someone who is intolerant of others due to race isn't of much significance.  At least not to me.

[GMDino]

(03-14-2018, 04:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Devotion to one's prejudices.  But I don't care what anyone calls something.  It's when it's applied because of assumed racism, prejudice or bigotry.  For instance, if you say that the reason someone wants to keep people from entering the country illegally is because they are brown, with nothing but your assumption, then that's no better. I think that type of thing is where people get offended.  But what we actually call someone who is intolerant of others due to race isn't of much significance.  At least not to me.

I agree that it's the behavior that's the problem no matter what we label it.