(03-14-2018, 03:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I disagree. If I look at someone and say they are an illegal alien based upon my perception of their race, then that is racist. Even if they in fact are an undocumented immigrant, because I made this claim based upon their race it is a racist assertion. Now, if I know for another reason that they are an undocumented immigrant, then it isn't racist to call them that.
Isn’t an undocumented immigrant in fact illegal? I realize it’s the dressed up phrase that pays for the open borders community. But in fact they are undocumented because they are here illegally.
(03-14-2018, 04:54 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Isn’t an undocumented immigrant in fact illegal? I realize it’s the dressed up phrase that pays for the open borders community. But in fact they are undocumented because they are here illegally.
The answer to your question is yes. However, your focus on that leads me to believe you do not understand the post in any way. Illegal alien and undocumented immigrant are synonymous terms that can be used interchangeably and are in my post. I'm thinking that my switch may have confused you.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(03-14-2018, 04:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The answer to your question is yes. However, your focus on that leads me to believe you do not understand the post in any way. Illegal alien and undocumented immigrant are synonymous terms that can be used interchangeably and are in my post. I'm thinking that my switch may have confused you.
Yeah I read it wrong. Thought you were comparing. My bad
I want to thank you all because no one here brought up the stupid thing about racism needing to have power behind it. IMO, when someone brings that up it is because they know what they're saying or want to say is racist but they want to get away with it.
No, as others have said, racism is the hatred of another person or a group of people based on their race and/or the color of their skin.
(03-14-2018, 05:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I want to thank you all because no one here brought up the stupid thing about racism needing to have power behind it. IMO, when someone brings that up it is because they know what they're saying or want to say is racist but they want to get away with it.
No, as others have said, racism is the hatred of another person or a group of people based on their race and/or the color of their skin.
Every race can be racists, but only the race with all of the power can oppress minorities with racists actions.
So here in the US there is racism against white people, but since white people have a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power they are not oppressed by racism like African Americans and other minorities.
(03-14-2018, 01:07 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I've heard some of my friends on the right side of the aisle claim that the word is bandied about and slung freely by those on the left side. My friends on the left side of the aisle fully believe we are in a time where racism is running rampant.
I certainly believe the term is thrown around way too lightly, and way too often.
As in "That's racist because [optinal: lenghthy argumentation full of rhetorical exaggerations and applying oversimplified "anti-racism" ethical guidelines]", my argumentation claims moral highground".
In addition to systemic, less personalized forms of racism, I feel there's also a lot of "real" racism around, often painted as "just honesty" and such, and it's getting increasingly loud and aggressive and attracts more and more people to lower their bar and let their own impulses free. In my country, that is, but I' suppose we aren't that different in that regard.
But in all that screaming, it sometimes gets hard to distinguish. Just sometimes... I feel being more or less rightfully annoyed with the over-sensitive rhetorics of the "left" plays its part in the so-called rise of the right, which is some kind of antidote to that. Exaggeration seldomly helps the cause.
(03-14-2018, 02:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Some racial stereotypes are true.
No, some racial stereotypes have some basis in fact. No racial stereotype is true as making it "true" would mean it applies to all members of that race. This is clearly not the case.
Quote:They only become a problem when an individual judges another individual based on a racial stereotype.
I'd disagree. Assuming anything about anyone because of their race is wrong. Even positive stereotypes, e.g. Jews are good with money, Asians are good at math, are wrong if automatically applied.
Quote:No one can watch track and field or the NBA and deny that genetically African Americans as a group are athletically superior to white people.
This, right here, is a racist statement. If you doubt me, then allow me to change a few words. Whites and Asians are overwhelmingly the majority of STEM field occupations. Based on your logic that would mean they are intellectual superior to other races. I don't believe this to be true, but it shed a light on how your statement is unwittingly racist.
(03-14-2018, 04:01 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Is it at least offensive ?
No, it's a legally accurate term. People trying to make it "offensive" are trying to manipulate your opinion by choosing a more palatable term to describe the immigration status of someone in your country illegally.
(03-14-2018, 05:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I want to thank you all because no one here brought up the stupid thing about racism needing to have power behind it. IMO, when someone brings that up it is because they know what they're saying or want to say is racist but they want to get away with it.
No, as others have said, racism is the hatred of another person or a group of people based on their race and/or the color of their skin.
Precisely correct. If there is any confusion about the term and it's meaning it's because the far left has tried to rephrase the term to mean something other than what it means to manipulate people. It's also to excuse the blatantly racist things that far too many of them express.
(03-14-2018, 06:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every race can be racists, but only the race with all of the power can oppress minorities with racists actions.
So here in the US there is racism against white people, but since white people have a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power they are not oppressed by racism like African Americans and other minorities.
Systemic oppression is not required for racism. It is, in fact, completely irrelevant to whether the term applies to anyone. Including it is a non-sequitur that, often intentionally, excuses racist behavior by those voicing it. Hating, hurting, mistreating or thinking someone is lesser based on their ethnicity is racism and that is all that is required to be a racist.
(03-14-2018, 06:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every race can be racists, but only the race with all of the power can oppress minorities with racists actions.
So here in the US there is racism against white people, but since white people have a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power they are not oppressed by racism like African Americans and other minorities.
(03-14-2018, 07:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Systemic oppression is not required for racism. It is, in fact, completely irrelevant to whether the term applies to anyone. Including it is a non-sequitur that, often intentionally, excuses racist behavior by those voicing it. Hating, hurting, mistreating or thinking someone is lesser based on their ethnicity is racism and that is all that is required to be a racist.
Just making sure you realize that you just agreed with me.
(03-14-2018, 02:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They only become a problem when an individual judges another individual based on a racial stereotype.
(03-14-2018, 07:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd disagree. Assuming anything about anyone because of their race is wrong. Even positive stereotypes, e.g. Jews are good with money, Asians are good at math, are wrong if automatically applied.
You say you disagree, but you are actually agreeing with me again.
Judging an individual based on a stereotype of his race is wrong.
(03-14-2018, 07:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Precisely correct. If there is any confusion about the term and it's meaning it's because the far left has tried to rephrase the term to mean something other than what it means to manipulate people. It's also to excuse the blatantly racist things that far too many of them express.
Sorry, but I am a little confused here.
what is the correct definition of racism and what is the "far left's" definition.
(03-14-2018, 05:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I want to thank you all because no one here brought up the stupid thing about racism needing to have power behind it. IMO, when someone brings that up it is because they know what they're saying or want to say is racist but they want to get away with it.
Yeah, that is one problem I have. Racism exists everywhere you look. Systemic racism fuels oppression, and that is rooted in power, but it is not needed for what occurs between people every day.
(03-14-2018, 05:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, as others have said, racism is the hatred of another person or a group of people based on their race and/or the color of their skin.
I disagree, here. Racism doesn't require hate. Discrimination and prejudice can flourish without any ill intent whatsoever.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(03-14-2018, 07:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just making sure you realize that you just agreed with me.
Racism can exist without oppression.
Sure. Why would you assume I was disagreeing?
(03-14-2018, 07:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You say you disagree, but you are actually agreeing with me again.
Judging an individual based on a stereotype of his race is wrong.
When I see the term "judging" used in this context I believe most people see this as a negative action. I was pointing out that this can exist with "positive stereotypes" as well. I am curious, and know you won't answer, but why didn't you address the point I made about your racist assumption based on a "positive stereotype"? You made a racist statement, I hope unwittingly, and I pointed that out. Why would you ignore that?
(03-14-2018, 07:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I am a little confused here.
what is the correct definition of racism and what is the "far left's" definition.
How exactly are they different?
You're not confused and you know exactly what I'm talking about. The alternative is that you just woke up from a four year long coma. As for the correct definition, I'm surprised you'd even ask that as you just agreed, in one of your many posts responding to my single post, that we agreed on the definition of the word.
As for the "far left's" definition, it was adequately stated by Phil and addressed by me, again in a post you quoted, that they believe institutional power used by the ethnicity in control of that power is necessary for a person to be a racist. I'll give you an example to clear you confusion.
(03-14-2018, 06:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every race can be racists, but only the race with all of the power can oppress minorities with racists actions.
So here in the US there is racism against white people, but since white people have a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power they are not oppressed by racism like African Americans and other minorities.
To the OP:
I fall in the "we're all biased" camp. Not just about race, but everything. You put me in a room of married white male writers in their late 30s with giant dongs who drive Nissans and like the Bengals... I'm pretty relaxed. Why? Because that's me. I identify with that, so I trust that a married white guy in his late 30s with a giant dong who drives a Nissan and likes the Bengals is an OK guy. We value and trust people on our ability to relate to them, whether that's based on race, gender, favorite sports team, station in life, or something else.
I don't think it's racism until it becomes action. When I hire people, I don't think about race, and I feel comfortable in saying I've never let that sway a decision. But could it effect my overall comfort with a candidate? Yes... but only as much as any other factor of that candidate being dissimilar from myself. In other words, if the interview gets into talking sports and a candidate says "Man, I'm a die hard Steelers fan" then that's going to effect my comfort level of that person. Not that I'd ever strike a candidate from a job based on their sports team, but it would play into the overall impression.
To Fred's post, I'd disagree. Racist minorities can have an impact on majorities of another race.
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