Rape by illegals at Maryland HS

[xxlt]

(03-21-2017, 08:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree, those who profit by their labor should be punished harshly.  However, getting rid of the people that "do the jobs that Americans don't want to do", opens a whole can of worms for a different discussion.

Let's just focus on the victim and her family, and what they must be feeling right now.  I know how I would feel if that happened to my daughter, or any child of anyone that I know.  I would be heart broken and outraged, which is what compelled me to post this thread in the first place.

Any less broken hearted if the perpetrators were US citizens? Boy scouts? Volunteered at the homeless shelter?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-22-2017, 10:42 AM)xxlt Wrote: Any less broken hearted if the perpetrators were US citizens? Boy scouts? Volunteered at the homeless shelter?

Dealing with this subject on an almost daily basis I can assure you that would not be the case.  I know your question wasn't serious and was intended to make a point.  To that point I would point out that being victimized by someone who wouldn't be in the country if federal law was enforced is a much more preventable crime than one perpetrated by someone who is in the country legally.  This is a fact that is not changed by a person's stance on illegal immigration, for or against.

[xxlt]

(03-22-2017, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dealing with this subject on an almost daily basis I can assure you that would not be the case.  I know your question wasn't serious and was intended to make a point.  To that point I would point out that being victimized by someone who wouldn't be in the country if federal law was enforced is a much more preventable crime than one perpetrated by someone who is in the country legally.  This is a fact that is not changed by a person's stance on illegal immigration, for or against.

Not sure I follow the logic. It sounds like you are saying rounding up 10 (or whatever the number is) million illegals and deporting them is more doable than making school hallways safe by providing additional staffing or different security protocols. Maybe, but I am not sure that was what you meant. Is that what you are saying? I am not, for the record, trying to pick a fight or be coy. I just read your post and really wasn't sure what counterpoint you were making.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-22-2017, 11:15 AM)xxlt Wrote: Not sure I follow the logic. It sounds like you are saying rounding up 10 (or whatever the number is) million illegals and deporting them is more doable than making school hallways safe by providing additional staffing or different security protocols. Maybe, but I am not sure that was what you meant. Is that what you are saying? I am not, for the record, trying to pick a fight or be coy. I just read your post and really wasn't sure what counterpoint you were making.

Nope, not what I said at all.  For some, the fact that their attacker (we'll just use that term broadly in this example, covering anything from a DUI to the assault in OP) shouldn't even be in the country makes the crime more upsetting as it was preventable.  I don't think anyone would argue the point that, compared to the rest of the industrialized world, the United States has a problem with crime.  Thus, the argument would be that as we have plenty of criminals in the country legally we don't need to let more into the country illegally.  Again, whatever your stance on illegal immigration this is a hard fact to dispute.

As for deporting millions of people, you'd never have to do that if you seriously started enforcing immigration law.  Start aggressively prosecuting and levying huge fines against business that employ illegal immigrants.  With no job and no money there would be no reason to be here.

[xxlt]

(03-22-2017, 11:33 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Nope, not what I said at all.  For some, the fact that their attacker (we'll just use that term broadly in this example, covering anything from a DUI to the assault in OP) shouldn't even be in the country makes the crime more upsetting as it was preventable.  I don't think anyone would argue the point that, compared to the rest of the industrialized world, the United States has a problem with crime.  Thus, the argument would be that as we have plenty of criminals in the country legally we don't need to let more into the country illegally.  Again, whatever your stance on illegal immigration this is a hard fact to dispute.

As for deporting millions of people, you'd never have to do that if you seriously started enforcing immigration law.  Start aggressively prosecuting and levying huge fines against business that employ illegal immigrants.  With no job and no money there would be no reason to be here.

The second paragraph identifies exactly why the problem will be a stubborn one. Many of those same employers who bankrolled Mr. Build A Wall (mostly big corporations, but some smaller operations too) benefit tremendously from the labor or illegals. So, going all the way back to Reagan and the first Bush you could see them at least being some what honest about that - these illegal immigrants do the work our welfare queens won't might be how Ronnie would have put it. And you will note there is nothing in pending legislation now nor has there been in recent memory that targeted the problem and the solution as you did. Instead, we are going to build a wall? And that is going to stop the Senator from Idongiveadamn from hiring an illegal nanny and paying her $3 an hour and no benefits how? It is going to stop big Ag from hiring undocumented workers and paying them less than minimum wage with no OT and no benefits how? It won't, as you know. But who is going to attack that problem? Crickets in the halls of Congress...

As to the first paragraph, I thought before you said that it wouldn't make any difference of the perpetrator was a Boy Scout or a (pardon the expression) wet back. But here you say that for some if the perp is an illegal it does make the crime worse - it increases the suffering of the victim. You have probably taken more victim impact statements than I have, so maybe that is true. Kind of doesn't make sense logically, but it is an emotional impact... Then you go on into crime rates. I have seen data referenced in at least a dozen article recently that shows illegals commit crimes at a lower rate than virtually any other cross section of the population except for maybe women over 65. So, focusing crime fighting resources on senior females and illegals seems fool hardy to me, but I am a pragmatist if nothing else.

The other thing you mentioned in that first paragraph was many other countries having lower crime rates than America. True dat. Now the latest "crime fighting initiative" in my local community is "Coffee with a Cop." Each week cops go hang out in a coffee shop and when and where is published so citizens can go drink coffee with them. Somehow this is supposed to reduce crime and make the world a better place. No, I am not making this up. Here are links to a facebook page and a local announcement of a coffee with a cop meeting later this month.

https://www.facebook.com/coffeewithacop

https://nextdoor.com/agency-post/fl/st-petersburg/st-petersburg-police-department-1/coffee-with-a-cop-36477510/

Setting aside the possible merits of coffee with a cop (the cynical part of me wonders if retired cops who have bought coffee shops dreamed this "program" up as a way to drive traffic and cops to their own shops) I have a question. Are you aware of any programs at the federal, state, or local levels that study policing in other countries with lower crime rates and bring the demonstrably more effective law enforcement techniques to America? Do you think such programs would be a good idea?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-22-2017, 11:56 AM)xxlt Wrote: As to the first paragraph, I thought before you said that it wouldn't make any difference of the perpetrator was a Boy Scout or a (pardon the expression) wet back. But here you say that for some if the perp is an illegal it does make the crime worse - it increases the suffering of the victim. You have probably taken more victim impact statements than I have, so maybe that is true. Kind of doesn't make sense logically, but it is an emotional impact... Then you go on into crime rates. I have seen data referenced in at least a dozen article recently that shows illegals commit crimes at a lower rate than virtually any other cross section of the population except for maybe women over 65. So, focusing crime fighting resources on senior females and illegals seems fool hardy to me, but I am a pragmatist if nothing else.

I'll get to the rest of this later, I wanted to address this point really quick though.  I said that the actions of the perpetrator are no different, the crime you suffer as the victim is exactly the same.  To some (many?) the fact that the crime was committed by someone who shouldn't have even been in the country to begin with rankles as it was a more preventable crime.  As for your data, I'd be interested in seeing it as anecdotally I see around 4-5 serious felonies committed by people in the country illegally every week.  This has actually gotten worse as MS has taken advantage of the lone child refugee program by sending gang members to the US who then state upon arrival that they are fleeing gang violence.

[xxlt]

(03-22-2017, 12:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll get to the rest of this later, I wanted to address this point really quick though.  I said that the actions of the perpetrator are no different, the crime you suffer as the victim is exactly the same.  To some (many?) the fact that the crime was committed by someone who shouldn't have even been in the country to begin with rankles as it was a more preventable crime.  As for your data, I'd be interested in seeing it as anecdotally I see around 4-5 serious felonies committed by people in the country illegally every week.  This has actually gotten worse as MS has taken advantage of the lone child refugee program by sending gang members to the US who then state upon arrival that they are fleeing gang violence.

Here you go: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?_r=0

From the article:

experts say the available evidence does not support the idea that undocumented immigrants commit a disproportionate share of crime.

“There’s no way I can mess with the numbers to get a different conclusion,” said Alex Nowrasteh, immigration policy analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute, which advocates more liberal immigration laws.

The Times article links to this document:  http://www.nber.org/papers/w13229.pdf

Here is the abstract:

Why are Immigrants' Incarceration Rates so Low? Evidence on Selective Immigration, Deterrence,

and Deportation
Kristin F. Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl
NBER Working Paper No. 13229
July 2007
JEL No. J1,J2,K4
ABSTRACT
The perception that immigration adversely affects crime rates led to legislation in the 1990s that particularly
increased punishment of criminal aliens. In fact, immigrants have much lower institutionalization (incarceration)

rates than the native born - on the order of one-fifth the rate of natives. More recently arrived immigrants

have the lowest relative incarceration rates, and this difference increased from 1980 to 2000. We examine
whether the improvement in immigrants' relative incarceration rates over the last three decades is linked
to increased deportation, immigrant self-selection, or deterrence. Our evidence suggests that deportation
does not drive the results. Rather, the process of migration selects individuals who either have lower

criminal propensities or are more responsive to deterrent effects than the average native. Immigrants

who were already in the country reduced their relative institutionalization probability over the decades;

and the newly arrived immigrants in the 1980s and 1990s seem to be particularly unlikely to be involved

in criminal activity, consistent with increasingly positive selection along this dimension.

[xxlt]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/

From the article:

Florida State University Professor of Criminology Daniel Mears says that “good data” focused on immigrant criminality - specifically undocumented immigrant criminality - is scarce. Determining definitively whether someone who has been arrested is in the country legally can take significant effort, and the result might not be noted in all law enforcement records. In addition, researchers often have to rely on arrest and conviction numbers, which may be misleading because they can reflect law enforcement priorities more than criminal behavior. A jurisdiction might see a spike one year, for example, if a police chief or prosecutor decides to prioritize enforcement against immigrants.

Despite this, Mears and others who study this subject seem to agree that most research indicates immigrants actually commit crime at lower rates than native-born citizens.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-22-2017, 12:54 PM)xxlt Wrote: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/

From the article:

Florida State University Professor of Criminology Daniel Mears says that “good data” focused on immigrant criminality - specifically undocumented immigrant criminality - is scarce. Determining definitively whether someone who has been arrested is in the country legally can take significant effort, and the result might not be noted in all law enforcement records. In addition, researchers often have to rely on arrest and conviction numbers, which may be misleading because they can reflect law enforcement priorities more than criminal behavior. A jurisdiction might see a spike one year, for example, if a police chief or prosecutor decides to prioritize enforcement against immigrants.

Despite this, Mears and others who study this subject seem to agree that most research indicates immigrants actually commit crime at lower rates than native-born citizens.

I'd be very interested if these studies take juvenile crime into account.  As juvenile records are confidential I'd lean towards them not being included.  That, coupled with the researchers own admission that data is scarce on the subject I'm not sure how much validity I'd give these.  As any researcher will tell you, more data equals more accurate results.

[*bfine32*]

(03-22-2017, 12:54 PM)xxlt Wrote: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/

From the article:

Florida State University Professor of Criminology Daniel Mears says that “good data” focused on immigrant criminality - specifically undocumented immigrant criminality - is scarce. Determining definitively whether someone who has been arrested is in the country legally can take significant effort, and the result might not be noted in all law enforcement records. In addition, researchers often have to rely on arrest and conviction numbers, which may be misleading because they can reflect law enforcement priorities more than criminal behavior. A jurisdiction might see a spike one year, for example, if a police chief or prosecutor decides to prioritize enforcement against immigrants.

Despite this, Mears and others who study this subject seem to agree that most research indicates immigrants actually commit crime at lower rates than native-born citizens.

Isn't the crime rate at 100% for the population that is here illegally?

[xxlt]

(03-22-2017, 12:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd be very interested if these studies take juvenile crime into account.  As juvenile records are confidential I'd lean towards them not being included.  That, coupled with the researchers own admission that data is scarce on the subject I'm not sure how much validity I'd give these.  As any researcher will tell you, more data equals more accurate results.

I've seen that it is the consensus in at least a dozen articles, like I said. The data that exists doesn't match your narrative. Sorry. More data might match it less. You can always say we need more then too I guess. I tend to trust subject matter experts who have studied something more than anecdotal accounts or what makes me feel better about what I believe. But that's just me lashing out.

[Vas Deferens]

Everything I've read is in alignment with what xxlt has posted.

SSF, I would imagine you have much more interaction with illegal immigrants than probably anyone else on the board given your locale and profession. Can't argue real life experience.

[*Nately120*]

(03-22-2017, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dealing with this subject on an almost daily basis I can assure you that would not be the case.  I know your question wasn't serious and was intended to make a point.  To that point I would point out that being victimized by someone who wouldn't be in the country if federal law was enforced is a much more preventable crime than one perpetrated by someone who is in the country legally.  This is a fact that is not changed by a person's stance on illegal immigration, for or against.

Hmm, this "if they wouldn't have been here, they wouldn't have caused this agony" defense may be the best argument against the pro-life movement I've ever seen.  Is not an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure? We'd better increase the funding of planned parenthood, lest we invite more trouble into our homeland.

I'd wager many of us know how it feels to be victimized by someone who should have been aborted.

[Rotobeast]

(03-22-2017, 06:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Hmm, this "if they wouldn't have been here, they wouldn't have caused this agony" defense may be the best argument against the pro-life movement I've ever seen.  Is not an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure? We'd better increase the funding of planned parenthood, lest we invite more trouble into our homeland.

I'd wager many of us know how it feels to be victimized by someone who should have been aborted.

You are phenomenal !

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-22-2017, 01:11 PM)xxlt Wrote: I've seen that it is the consensus in at least a dozen articles, like I said. The data that exists doesn't match your narrative. Sorry. More data might match it less. You can always say we need more then too I guess. I tend to trust subject matter experts who have studied something more than anecdotal accounts or what makes me feel better about what I believe. But that's just me lashing out.

Again, I'd ask if juvenile crime was included in this data.  Do you not have an answer for this?  

(03-22-2017, 01:32 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Everything I've read is in alignment with what xxlt has posted.  

SSF, I would imagine you have much more interaction with illegal immigrants than probably anyone else on the board given your locale and profession.  Can't argue real life experience.

I'd say between 20-30% of the people I interact with are not here legally.

(03-22-2017, 06:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Hmm, this "if they wouldn't have been here, they wouldn't have caused this agony" defense may be the best argument against the pro-life movement I've ever seen.  Is not an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure?  We'd better increase the funding of planned parenthood, lest we invite more trouble into our homeland.

I'd wager many of us know how it feels to be victimized by someone who should have been aborted.

An interesting, albeit intentionally facetious, analogy.  Let me frame an analogy for this argument.  You're in a bad car crash and lose an arm.  You're obviously upset about that.  Now let's say the crash happened because the car company knowingly used substandard parts, thus the accident would not have occurred if they had not cut costs at the expense of safety.  Now let's say you're the victim of a robbery, you are obviously shook up and distraught.  now let's say you were robbed by someone who should have been deported but wasn't for whatever reason.  You are now more upset that your robbery was preventable if only the law had been enforced.


Let's take xxlt's data as gospel and say illegal immigrants commit crime at a lesser rate than the citizens and those here legally.  Let's go further and suppose that even with all out deportation efforts and charges against employers you only prevent 30% of the crime committed by the illegal populace.  Now let's say your wife or child is killed in a car accident caused by an illegal immigrant driving under the influence.  Are you supposed to be comforted by the fact that enforcing the law would likely not have prevented the death of your loved one?  Would you not wonder for the rest of your life if they would have been one of those 30%?  The former would be cold comfort at best and the latter would be agonizing.

[xxlt]

(03-23-2017, 12:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:
Again, I'd ask if juvenile crime was included in this data.  Do you not have an answer for this?  


I'd say between 20-30% of the people I interact with are not here legally.


An interesting, albeit intentionally facetious, analogy.  Let me frame an analogy for this argument.  You're in a bad car crash and lose an arm.  You're obviously upset about that.  Now let's say the crash happened because the car company knowingly used substandard parts, thus the accident would not have occurred if they had not cut costs at the expense of safety.  Now let's say you're the victim of a robbery, you are obviously shook up and distraught.  now let's say you were robbed by someone who should have been deported but wasn't for whatever reason.  You are now more upset that your robbery was preventable if only the law had been enforced.


Let's take xxlt's data as gospel and say illegal immigrants commit crime at a lesser rate than the citizens and those here legally.  Let's go further and suppose that even with all out deportation efforts and charges against employers you only prevent 30% of the crime committed by the illegal populace.  Now let's say your wife or child is killed in a car accident caused by an illegal immigrant driving under the influence.  Are you supposed to be comforted by the fact that enforcing the law would likely not have prevented the death of your loved one?  Would you not wonder for the rest of your life if they would have been one of those 30%?  The former would be cold comfort at best and the latter would be agonizing.

No, I don't. Is there some juvenile crime wave I am unaware of? I was under the impression that juveniles committed fewer crimes than adults and they were handled in juvenile courts and juvenile detention centers on a case by case basis. That is why in the typical community there are fewer juvenile criminal courts than adult criminal courts and fewer juvenile detention facilities than adult detention facilities. Correct me if I am wrong. And if I am, I will admit it. I like to learn new things!

While I was aware the incident in the OP happened at a HS and involved juvenile criminals, I was not aware that this was somehow emblematic of the huuuuuuuuuuuuge juvenile immigrant crime wave that not only do I not have data on, neither do you or anyone else apparently. Again, feel free to illuminate the subject.

I know I am a flaming lunatic but I am going to assume juveniles in immigrant populations commit no more or nor less crime than juveniles in other populations. It is maybe the dumbest assumption in human history but I am going with it. And, as multiple subject matter experts have claimed in multiple reports (including ones cited by the libertarian Cato Institute, which doesn't have a Karl Marx wing in case you were wondering) that immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than any other use population subset (except, as I noted, maybe grandmothers) I am going to go with that. In spite of the glaring fact I don't know how closely criminal justice researchers across the entire country have looked at juvenile crime as a subset of immigrant crime. I know, dumber than dogshit. That's me. I am not lashing out - this is my sackcloth and ashes routine. Mea culpa, mea culpa!

[xxlt]

(03-22-2017, 12:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll get to the rest of this later, I wanted to address this point really quick though.  I said that the actions of the perpetrator are no different, the crime you suffer as the victim is exactly the same.  To some (many?) the fact that the crime was committed by someone who shouldn't have even been in the country to begin with rankles as it was a more preventable crime.  As for your data, I'd be interested in seeing it as anecdotally I see around 4-5 serious felonies committed by people in the country illegally every week.  This has actually gotten worse as MS has taken advantage of the lone child refugee program by sending gang members to the US who then state upon arrival that they are fleeing gang violence.

If  you are so inclined, I am still interested in what you have to say about the rest of post 45, which the above post was in response to.

[fredtoast]

(03-23-2017, 12:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Let's take xxlt's data as gospel and say illegal immigrants commit crime at a lesser rate than the citizens and those here legally.  Let's go further and suppose that even with all out deportation efforts and charges against employers you only prevent 30% of the crime committed by the illegal populace.  Now let's say your wife or child is killed in a car accident caused by an illegal immigrant driving under the influence.  Are you supposed to be comforted by the fact that enforcing the law would likely not have prevented the death of your loved one?  Would you not wonder for the rest of your life if they would have been one of those 30%?  The former would be cold comfort at best and the latter would be agonizing.

There is a big hole in your logic.  By removing all illegal immigrants you are also removing other potential victims of crimes.  So you chances of being a victim DO NOT CHANGE AT ALL if all illegals are deported.  While you may avoid being the victim of a criminal that was an illegal immigrant you may also more likely be the victim of a non-illegal immigrant because he no longer has an illegal immigrant as a target.  People just do not realize that everytime they see an illegal who is the victim of a crime that he would be replaced by a natural citizen if all illegals were removed.  So more natural born citizens would be victims because they replace the illegals who are removed.  Illegal immigrants actually PREVENT a lot of natural born citizens from being victims of crime because they take their place.  But no one ever gives the illegals credit for this.

If illegal commit crimes at the same rate as natives then removing the illegals has ZERO effect on your potential to be a victim.  More perps are gone, but more potential victims are also gone.  The total population may be smaller, but the odds of you being a victim have not changed.

So if you are concerned about crime then take action to prevent crime not immigration.  Preventing immigration will do nothing to change the crime rate.  Linking crime to illegals was just a tool of racists to turn people against immigration.

[*Nately120*]

(03-23-2017, 12:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: An interesting, albeit intentionally facetious, analogy.  Let me frame an analogy for this argument.  You're in a bad car crash and lose an arm.  You're obviously upset about that.  Now let's say the crash happened because the car company knowingly used substandard parts, thus the accident would not have occurred if they had not cut costs at the expense of safety.  Now let's say you're the victim of a robbery, you are obviously shook up and distraught.  now let's say you were robbed by someone who should have been deported but wasn't for whatever reason.  You are now more upset that your robbery was preventable if only the law had been enforced.

I'm just saying if we continue to defund planned parenthood and/or ever outlaw abortion even more people are going to know how it feels to be victimized by someone who "shouldn't be here to offend."  

[BmorePat87]

(03-22-2017, 01:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Isn't the crime rate at 100% for the population that is here illegally?

Depends on what you mean by "here illegally". Improper entry into the US is a crime but unlawful presence isn't actually a crime (it's a civil offense). So for the estimated 40% of "illegals" in the US who are former visas holders or lawful entrants who never left, they potentially never committed a crime (with regards to their entry and presence in the US). 

Such a huge part of the population that gets ignored in the immigration debate. Also the chunk more likely to actually take jobs from citizens (as they tend to be skilled/educated).