Read it and Weep

[Derrick]

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/9/11/16284022/8-thoughts-bengals-20-0-loss-ravens-week-1

[bengals73]

(09-11-2017, 01:47 PM)Derrick Wrote: https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/9/11/16284022/8-thoughts-bengals-20-0-loss-ravens-week-1

OH No :-(  I hope Zampese doesn't read this .. If so he'll bring back the dreaded stupid change at the line idiotic formations again

[THE PISTONS]

What do you expect at OC?

We have Gruden who left and was replaced internally by Jackson who left and was replaced internally by Zampese.

Do the Bengals think that every coach they have is capable of being a coordinator?

[Hammerstripes]

(09-11-2017, 01:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What do you expect at OC?

We have Gruden who left and was replaced internally by Jackson who left and was replaced internally by Zampese.

Do the Bengals think that every coach they have is capable of being a coordinator?

The only way anything will change is if the Bengals go outside for their new coach.  I have to believe that this will be the year - unless they make the playoffs.  I can't see that happening.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-11-2017, 01:53 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The only way anything will change is if the Bengals go outside for their new coach.  I have to believe that this will be the year - unless they make the playoffs.  I can't see that happening.

Bengals management runs things here different than other organizations. If they go outside, they risk someone coming in and trying to shake things up.

That's why most of their hires are internal...or why they hire people with passive personalities like Marvin. Because he can coexist with them.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-11-2017, 01:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bengals management runs things here different than other organizations. If they go outside, they risk someone coming in and trying to shake things up.

That's why most of their hires are internal...or why they hire people with passive personalities like Marvin. Because he can coexist with them.

Even when Marv was brought in, several coaches were kept.

Bob Bratkowski - OC
Paul Alexander - O-line
Jim Anderson - RBs
Kevin Coyle - CBs (promoted to secondary coach when Marv got hired)
Bob Surace - Offensive Assistant
Louie Cioffi - Defensive Assistant

[Murdock2420]

(09-11-2017, 02:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Even when Marv was brought in, several coaches were kept.

Bob Bratkowski - OC
Paul Alexander - O-line
Jim Anderson - RBs
Kevin Coyle - CBs (promoted to secondary coach when Marv got hired)
Bob Surace - Offensive Assistant
Louie Cioffi - Defensive Assistant

Sigh.... so what you are saying is, when the season ends and Marvin is put down, we'll still be stuck with Alexander?

Damn it Shake, my liver can not handle that type of news.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-11-2017, 02:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Even when Marv was brought in, several coaches were kept.

Bob Bratkowski - OC
Paul Alexander - O-line
Jim Anderson - RBs
Kevin Coyle - CBs (promoted to secondary coach when Marv got hired)
Bob Surace - Offensive Assistant
Louie Cioffi - Defensive Assistant

Brat was driven out (eventually).
Jim Anderson eventually retired, giving way to Hue Jackson. I remember the huge criticism he was getting on the old boards in his final years as RBs coach.
Alexander...enough said.
Coyle was a solid DBs coach but Vance was better.

This team needs to take more risks but also hold employees accountable when those risks don't pay off.
Nothing wrong with a little churn.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-11-2017, 02:46 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sigh.... so what you are saying is, when the season ends and Marvin is put down, we'll still be stuck with Alexander?

Damn it Shake, my liver can not handle that type of news.

It depends. I want to believe Marv kept much of the offensive staff intact because he was a defensive-minded coach. I'm sure Mike didn't like the idea of flipping over the entire staff, though.

Maybe we should hire an offensive HC and keep Paul Guenther, Coyle and co? I think we're MUCH better off on the defensive side.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-11-2017, 01:51 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What do you expect at OC?

We have Gruden who left and was replaced internally by Jackson who left and was replaced internally by Zampese.

Do the Bengals think that every coach they have is capable of being a coordinator?

It's amazing how the Bengals always have the best available OC already on their staff.

[Murdock2420]

(09-11-2017, 02:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It depends. I want to believe Marv kept much of the offensive staff intact because he was a defensive-minded coach. I'm sure Mike didn't like the idea of flipping over the entire staff, though.

Maybe we should hire an offensive HC and keep Paul Guenther, Coyle and co? I think we're MUCH better off on the defensive side.

I'd be all in favor of that, Coyle, Guenther, Urban and Simmons (that guy finds gems all the time) can all stick around....but the guys who are coaching position groups that fail even with top talent....looking at you O-line group, or terrible play calling from an OC, they need to be flushed along with Marvin.

Downside is, who is out there that is a top coaching prospect that is offensive minded?

[THE PISTONS]

(09-11-2017, 02:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It depends. I want to believe Marv kept much of the offensive staff intact because he was a defensive-minded coach. I'm sure Mike didn't like the idea of flipping over the entire staff, though.

Maybe we should hire an offensive HC and keep Paul Guenther, Coyle and co? I think we're MUCH better off on the defensive side.

Coyle was a pretty bad DC in Miami:


https://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/4/9448897/dolphins-defensive-coordinator-kevin-coyle-fired-joe-philbin

[THE PISTONS]

(09-11-2017, 03:56 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'd be all in favor of that, Coyle, Guenther, Urban and Simmons (that guy finds gems all the time) can all stick around....but the guys who are coaching position groups that fail even with top talent....looking at you O-line group, or terrible play calling from an OC, they need to be flushed along with Marvin.

Downside is, who is out there that is a top coaching prospect that is offensive minded?

The problem is the best Offensive Coaching prospects usually coach teams with a great QB. They won't have that here.

Also, they'll have a coordinator who runs the offense here. The head coach is more a big picture guy while the coordinators are X's and O's. We need a tough Head Coach who can get the team fired up. Then fire all the offensive coaches in and hire a real X's and O's offensive coordinator who can come up with an innovative scheme to utilize our WR's and RB's.

Our RB's should be used in the passing game in isolation with LB's. No way can a LB stay with them.

[Murdock2420]

(09-11-2017, 04:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The problem is the best Offensive Coaching prospects usually coach teams with a great QB. They won't have that here.

Also, they'll have a coordinator who runs the offense here. The head coach is more a big picture guy while the coordinators are X's and O's. We need a tough Head Coach who can get the team fired up. Then fire all the offensive coaches in and hire a real X's and O's offensive coordinator who can come up with an innovative scheme to utilize our WR's and RB's.

Our RB's should be used in the passing game in isolation with LB's. No way can a LB stay with them.

Fair enough, but the same question gets posed here... Is there any coaching prospects out there right now that fit that bill? Need a guy with NFL experience that is not a retread.

Needs experience to earn the respect of players, and not a retread because those never seem to work.

[Pat5775]

(09-11-2017, 02:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Even when Marv was brought in, several coaches were kept.

Bob Bratkowski - OC
Paul Alexander - O-line
Jim Anderson - RBs
Kevin Coyle - CBs (promoted to secondary coach when Marv got hired)
Bob Surace - Offensive Assistant
Louie Cioffi - Defensive Assistant

So what you're saying is... Bresnahan was a Marvin hire? 


Sometimes, I think back to the end of the 2008 season and wonder what would have happened had Marvin been fired (like I and many others thought he should). Where would this team be now? Would we still have AJ? Would we still have Carson? Would we have that elusive playoff win or, better yet, a super bowl? 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-11-2017, 04:04 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Fair enough, but the same question gets posed here... Is there any coaching prospects out there right now that fit that bill? Need a guy with NFL experience that is not a retread.

Needs experience to earn the respect of players, and not a retread because those never seem to work.

There are always top coordinators of NFL teams. Here is a list:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000715672/article/head-coach-candidates-josh-mcdaniels-tops-the-list

[Bengalholic]

(09-11-2017, 04:13 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Sometimes, I think back to the end of the 2008 season and wonder what would have happened had Marvin been fired (like I and many others thought he should). Where would this team be now? Would we still have AJ? Would we still have Carson? Would we have that elusive playoff win or, better yet, a super bowl? 

Man, it's hard to say. Think about it...in 49 seasons, this franchise has only managed 5 total postseason victories. 5 in 49 years!

Like many, I think a new voice and approach are needed at head coach, and that Marvin should be gone. However, sometimes it just feels like it's purely systemic with this organization, and no real change (in terms of end results) will happen - no matter who the coach is - until the old man sitting in the tiger striped throne is eventually replaced.

[Murdock2420]

(09-11-2017, 04:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There are always top coordinators of NFL teams. Here is a list:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000715672/article/head-coach-candidates-josh-mcdaniels-tops-the-list

They need to update the list a little, some of those guys are coaches. Guenther is a nice name to see on the list, but really don't want another hire from within kind of guy.

McDaniels would be great as would Patricia, but neither of those guys would leave New England to come here and coach, Mike wouldn't pay them enough or give them enough control. Those guys are from a winning culture and will want to do things a winning way not the Cincinnati on a budget way.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-11-2017, 03:56 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'd be all in favor of that, Coyle, Guenther, Urban and Simmons (that guy finds gems all the time) can all stick around....but the guys who are coaching position groups that fail even with top talent....looking at you O-line group, or terrible play calling from an OC, they need to be flushed along with Marvin.

Downside is, who is out there that is a top coaching prospect that is offensive minded?

Darrell Bevell
Harold Goodwin

Both of those have done good work with QBs of similar caliber. Josh McDaniels and Scott Linehan have also done good work lately.

(09-11-2017, 03:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Coyle was a pretty bad DC in Miami:


https://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/4/9448897/dolphins-defensive-coordinator-kevin-coyle-fired-joe-philbin

He's been pretty good as our secondary coach, IMO. Remember he was responsible for Leon, JJo, Nelson, etc. 

(09-11-2017, 04:13 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: So what you're saying is... Bresnahan was a Marvin hire? 


Sometimes, I think back to the end of the 2008 season and wonder what would have happened had Marvin been fired (like I and many others thought he should). Where would this team be now? Would we still have AJ? Would we still have Carson? Would we have that elusive playoff win or, better yet, a super bowl? 

Yeah Bresnahan was a Marvin hire. So was Leslie Frazier that preceded him. So were Zimmer and Guenther though.

And good question. I believe Carson would still be here because it seems like his beef was with Marvin based on everything I saw. Beyond that, idk.

[Pat5775]

(09-11-2017, 04:33 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, it's hard to say. Think about it...in 49 seasons, this franchise has only managed 5 total postseason victories. 5 in 49 years!

Like many, I think a new voice and approach are needed at head coach, and that Marvin should be gone. However, sometimes it just feels like it's purely systemic with this organization, and no real change (in terms of end results) will happen - no matter who the coach is - until the old man sitting in the tiger striped throne is eventually replaced.

Correct. Mike is just as much a problem as Marv. There's loyalty and then there's blind stupidity... Mike encompasses the latter. 

However, I assume Katie would take on more of the main roll if there is indeed a coaching change. No real reason, just a feeling I get. Mike did say it was essentially Katie and marvs team a few years ago. I would hope that Mike just let Katie run the show and not jump back into the decision maker roll (but I wouldn't be shocked if he did  )