Report: Burrow pushing for Bengals to draft Chase

[*Synric*]

(04-12-2021, 05:22 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The mothership wanted 5 guys, basically:

- Cam (but we knew we wouldn't get him)
- AJ was #2 by far
- Julio was #3 by far
- Bfine and a few others wanted Gabbert (but mainly Bfine)
- Peterson was the defensive guy people wanted most (as Joseph left after 2010)

Thus, when we got AJ, many were super-happy; the previous year, a ton of people wanted Gresham as well, so people were super-happy lol.

That was probably the only draft, after last year of course, where there was a fair consensus of whom we wanted and when the team made that consensus pick, people were content.

I was one of the odd balls that wanted Marcell Darius.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-12-2021, 05:26 PM)Synric Wrote: I was one of the odd balls that wanted Marcell Darius.

After my post, I went back to see the picks in '11 and he immediately stuck out like a sore thumb; I truly remember VERY few people wanting Dareus. Probably didn't hurt that we had Peko-Geno-Sims-our trio of larger DEs who went inside on passing downs (MJ, Frostee, Fanene), so DT wasn't a huge need (and we drafted Still and Thompson, in '12).

I also remember everyone knowing that Von Miller didn't have a chance to slide to us, so nobody really was pushing for him

[Shake n Blake]

(04-12-2021, 05:07 PM)Synric Wrote: This was interesting...

Watch these and mark down each time the WR is blanketed and how many times the QB is pressured. https://t.co/EbL1CnIw7C

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) April 11, 2021

I saw pressure on at least a quarter of those throws, and it certainly doesn't look like our routes are ever fooling anyone.

It's a 3 part problem of blocking, scheme and speed...but this video doesn't seem like the coup de grace that Goodberry wants it to be.

The mid range routes aren't all about 40 time. Hardly any of these routes are a straight line, and none of them are deep throws where blazing speed really shines.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2021, 05:22 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The mothership wanted 5 guys, basically:

- Cam (but we knew we wouldn't get him)

I'll be honest.  I predicted that Cam would be a complete bust in the NFL.

He was amazing as a runner in college, but he relied a lot on power and I did not think that would transfer as well to the NFL.

I don't think I ever saw him make more than one read in college before taking off running.

He had serious character issues. (stole a laptop while playing for Urban's mafia and was facing expulsion for academic cheating when he transferred)

Plus he was a one-year wonder.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-12-2021, 05:22 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: - Bfine and a few others wanted Gabbert (but mainly Bfine)

(Sorry, Bfine.  We all miss on picks, but the opportunity to use this gif was too good to pass up.)

[*Synric*]

(04-12-2021, 05:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I saw pressure on at least a quarter of those throws, and it certainly doesn't look like our routes are ever fooling anyone.

It's a 3 part problem of blocking, scheme and speed...but this video doesn't seem like the coup de grace that Goodberry wants it to be.

It's about 50/50 on the Offensive Line and the Receivers with a few bad plays by the QB thrown in.

They truly need both Offensive Line and a Receiver. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-12-2021, 05:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I saw pressure on at least a quarter of those throws, and it certainly doesn't look like our routes are ever fooling anyone.

It's a 3 part problem of blocking, scheme and speed...but this video doesn't seem like the coup de grace that Goodberry wants it to be.

To me the WR’s were a far bigger problem in that set of clips. There was obviously a bunch of pressures too, but a lot of the throws were still right on target, but the WR had a DB(s) draped all over him.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-12-2021, 05:22 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The mothership wanted 5 guys, basically:

- Cam (but we knew we wouldn't get him)
- AJ was #2 by far
- Julio was #3 by far
- Bfine and a few others wanted Gabbert (but mainly Bfine)
- Peterson was the defensive guy people wanted most (as Joseph left after 2010)

Thus, when we got AJ, many were super-happy; the previous year, a ton of people wanted Gresham as well, so people were super-happy lol.

That was probably the only draft, after last year of course, where there was a fair consensus of whom we wanted and when the team made that consensus pick, people were content.

I wanted AJ Green, and I also wanted to trade up to 32 and nab Dalton.

We wound up not needing to.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-12-2021, 05:35 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: To me the WR’s were a far bigger problem in that set of clips. There was obviously a bunch of pressures too, but a lot of the throws were still right on target, but the WR had a DB(s) draped all over him.

I saw a grab bag of problems:

Lots of pressure
Some balls that were too high
Some come back routes that the DB just sat on
Some crossing patterns that didn't fool anyone
Only a couple of these were definitely 100% lack of separation being the main culprit

We definitely lack speed though. I've never argued that it isn't an issue. I just don't see it as a bigger issue than blocking.

Even if you view it as THE issue with deep passing, deep passing is also affected by blocking, and deep passing is only one aspect of the offense. More speed isn't going to help the run game more than better blocking. It isn't going to keep Burrow healthy like good blocking, and better blocking will also help deep passing.

I just see more benefits from better blocking than I do more speed. Of course, we can get both in this draft. We just disagree on how to go about it.

[Murdock2420]

(04-12-2021, 04:41 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone that’s against drafting any of the three is out of their minds. Was the old board like this when we picked AJ?

Not at all. We were in a bad way when we drafted AJ and Andy.

This was the WR room when AJ came in:

 Andre Caldwell

Quan Cosby
Shay Hodge
Jordan Shipley
Jerome Simpson


Chad Ochocinco was sent to the Pats predraft, so there was a huge need for a WR in that year. That is a lot of mediocrity.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-12-2021, 06:17 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Not at all. We were in a bad way when we drafted AJ and Andy.

This was the WR room when AJ came in:

 Andre Caldwell

Quan Cosby
Shay Hodge
Jordan Shipley
Jerome Simpson


Chad Ochocinco was sent to the Pats predraft, so there was a huge need for a WR in that year. That is a lot of mediocrity.

I meant who to take , like (AJ vs Julio).

[Murdock2420]

(04-12-2021, 06:27 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I meant who to take , like (AJ vs Julio).

Oh oh... 

From what I remember it was literally a case of either one would be fine. Both had high level of production in the same conference, there wasn't much to say this one is better then that one and no link to anyone on the team. People were just excited we were going to get one of the two. 

And then as Fred said, there was a few on the outside saying to take Patrick Peterson and even a handful of people wanting us to go QB in the 1st and take Gabbert or Ponder (that would have been a rough one).

But nothing like this year at all. I think 95% of the board was in the mindset of Green or Julio... either one, can't miss.

The bigger fight was in round 2, Dalton being picked over Kaepernick but that literally was a 24 hour argument since it was after round one and into round two.

[Whatever]

(04-12-2021, 12:34 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. I see. So you're arguing against a careless statement made by Bengals67? Just because he was technically incorrect about any QB "always" getting 4 seconds, it seems kinda petty to focus on "always" to ignore the validity of the overall point.

2. I don't want to be locked in, but we don't have to take a guy in the 2nd. I was being facetious when I said that. My point was that the Steelers clearly didn't view WR3 (based on targets) to be such a dire need that they burned a 1st on it...let alone the 5th overall pick...and our duo of Higgins/Boyd is every bit as good as their duo of Johnson/Schuster was/is. They probably only took the guy because he fell to them, as you point out.

As for that draft class, there are many who view this WR class in a similar light:

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2021-nfl-draft-ranking-wide-receiver-prospects-lsu-jamarr-chase




I could list more if you want, but we all love PFF, right?

3. Guys only punch with the wrong hand, etc if they switch sides. That wouldn't be an issue with Reiff if we played him at LG. Although he's switched sides in his NFL career successfully before. For every coach who says "it's not as easy as people think", I can list 5 players who switched successfully. It's not guaranteed to work out, but - again - you're making it seem far more dubious than it actually is.

I have little doubt that someone as talented and hard working as Sewell could switch sides.

4. No, I meant 2016...because that's when the line fell off...along with Andy's deep ball numbers. I remember because Andy's deep passing was a constant debate on here and I always had to look up the numbers. Unfortunately, my source for deep stats (ESPN) removed them, I guess. But I remember Dalton's deep stat decline coincided with the fall of the o-line.

Fwiw, AJ Green played 35 games between 2016 to 2018, and was still an elite player when he played.

5. What? No. The WR class is overall deeper than the overall OL class. Yes, you try to get need and value to intersect, but it doesn't always work out that way. A smart GM would know this. You can't plan for what the other 31 teams will do on draft day. One run on o-lineman (for example) would throw a giant wrench in your plans.

------------

I knew you'd bring up TE's or RB's. We're talking WR's here. You even mentioned WR's specifically when you were talking about Brady, and the current "era". You weren't talking about TE's or defense, or any other position...and even if you were, the argument here isn't to draft Pitts...is it?

I'll just ignore the rest. You seem like you're getting frustrated, bringing up stuff about the Pats cheating, etc...as if that has anything to do with our debate.

This feels like it could go on forever, so I'm going to do you a favor and bow out. Have a good night dude, no hard feelings. Good debate.

1.Except I even downplayed his statement in my response to consistently.  So, if we both acknowledge he made an incorrect statement, why are you continuing to debate it?

2.Except the Steelers didn't have a 1st round pick last year due to the Fitzpatrick trade.  So they spent the 1st pick they had on a WR when they already had a Pro Bowler in JuJu.

The guy's Top 10 in his article has 4 guys from this class vs 6 from last year's, which tells you right there that this year's class isn't as good.  

3.For every guy who moved without a drop off, there's a bunch of guys who couldn't.  That's why coaches and players say it's not so easy, because they remember all the failures.  Sewell has been knocked for his work ethic and when asked about playing G said he would try to prove that he's a LT, which doesn't sound like he wants to switch.

4.Well, Whit and Zeitler didn't leave until '17, which is what most if us consider the line collapsing.  AJ majorly dropped off from '17 on.

5.Again, the numbers for OL vs WR in the Top 50 are 13 to 8.  Top 100 is 20 to 14 in favor of OL.  Top 150 is 26 to 24 in favor of OL. WR doesn't pull ahead until you go down to the Top 200, which is in the middle of round 6, where you're looking at project players and depth guys.  We need immediate starters at both spots.  The best chance to accomplish that is with picks in the Top 50 and we realistically don't have much of a chance of grabbing one at either position outside of the Top 100.  There are more OL in the Top 50 than WR's.  It's mathematically more likely that a run on WR's will take you out of a position to get one at a reasonable value in 2 than a run on OL.   We pick 38th in the second.  Even if 1 out of every 3 picks to that point is OL, there should still be one there.  

No, you stated "weapons" repeatedly in reference to the point you made about the Pats and Eagles.  If you just meant WR's, you should have said WR's.  You opened that particular discussion up to include RB's and TE's when you said "weapons."

I'm not frustrated with you or the discussion.  I'm just tired of people repeatedly bringing up a team that we all know taped opponents and stole signals as their fallback to the argument that you need elite weapons to compete for the SB.  The fact that they stole signals, jammed the defensive headsets, and videotaped opponents (including us) is very pertinent, as it gave their offense an unfair advantage to help overcome their lack of weapons.  

[*bfine32*]

(04-12-2021, 05:22 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The mothership wanted 5 guys, basically:


- Bfine and a few others wanted Gabbert (but mainly Bfine)

(04-12-2021, 05:33 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:

(Sorry, Bfine.  We all miss on picks, but the opportunity to use this gif was too good to pass up.)

Link?



OK, I did want Gabbard, but I've  always said: You want a good QB, don't take who I like

I was also big on Johnny Football and Josh Rosen

[Murdock2420]

(04-12-2021, 08:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Link?



OK, I did want Gabbard, but I've  always said: You want a good QB, don't take who I like

I was also big on Johnny Football and Josh Rosen

Crap... weren't you on the Burrow movement last season??!???

If so he is doomed....

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-12-2021, 08:45 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Crap... weren't you on the Burrow movement last season??!???

If so he is doomed....

Let’s hope he was high on Tua.

[Murdock2420]

(04-12-2021, 08:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Let’s hope he was high on Tua.

Tua is playing like a Bfine favorite 

[Waite Hoyt]

Was originally in the take a receiver first but now I am a take Sewell first camp. My reasoning is that fixing the line does a number of things.

1. It helps the running game which controls the clock and indirectly helps the defense.
2. It makes the offense much more unpredictable
3. Helps the play action game
4. Protects the franchise ( Burrow)

[BayTiger]

If Zac Taylor believes that Sewell is a generational talent that's his pick. ZT knows he's done if Burrow goes down again. I don't see him risking his career to take a receiver and a second round OL. He knows he can get away with average receivers but he'll get run out of town if he doesn't protect Burrow.

[bengaloo]

(04-13-2021, 07:54 AM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: Was originally in the take a receiver first but now I am a take Sewell first camp. My reasoning is that fixing the line does a number of things.

1. It helps the running game which controls the clock and indirectly helps the defense.
2. It makes the offense much more unpredictable
3. Helps the play action game
4. Protects the franchise ( Burrow)

Im basically in this camp. I was originally all Chase, but evolved for the same reasons you mentioned. Protecting Burrow being the #1 reason hands down. He could have all the weapons in the world but if he's getting hit all the time, he's going to suffer for it and either not play as well as he could, or keep getting hurt potentially ruining his promising career. Protecting who looks like could end up the best QB we've ever had should be the #1 priority and its not even close, imo. OLmen helps the run game as well, which helps the QB, the defense and the entire team. 

Cleveland didnt make the playoffs and stomp the Stealers in the first game because of OBJ or any of the WR's. They made the playoffs because they fixed their OL last offseason. They can protect Baker and run the ball. OBJ didnt add much to that team, which is why they got better when he went down against us. I cant believe Im saying this, but I'd prefer to follow their blueprint. Get the OL fixed so we can run the ball and keep Burrow safe. It opens everything up.