Restaurant owner blames liberal, LGBTQ critics for losing investors

[Belsnickel]

(07-09-2019, 06:26 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I can't speak for Belsnickel or GMDino, but I believe we are all saying the same thing. A MAGA hat is evidence of possible racism, but not definitive proof.

I'll let them interject if they disagree.

Yeah, I'm not saying that. All I have been saying is that it is not my understanding of the Covington incident that they were profiled as racists solely because of their hats by the media and the general public. When I see a MAGA hat I only see it as evidence of the person being a Trump supporter.

[*Nately120*]

(07-09-2019, 02:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The Catholic boy from Covington was labeled a racist solely because he wore such a hat and there are numerous other examples of people slurred simply for wearing the headgear. You really are innocent. 

I was wearing a Calgary Stampeders shirt the other day and someone who didn't know me very well looked sort of confused and said "Are you from Canada, Nate?" and rather than saying "No, but I watch the CFL for some reason" I just slyly said "I don't know what you are talking aboot!"

At any rate, life is all about making assumptions so wear stuff at your own risk. At least that's what I told one of my friends circa 1999 when he wore a dog collar to school and was complaining that people were singling him out for cliched bullying.

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 07:18 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: You provided links to dispute a stance I did not have, which was "no one is called racist without definitive proof." I never had that stance, so it makes sense that your links would not change my stance.

And I also didn't ask for stories about people treating hoodies like evidence. I asked for a story about a criminal staking claim on hoodies as "the symbol of those who support me and what I do."

Granted, that was tongue in cheek because I know that story doesn't exist. Because that'd be ridiculous. Unfortunately, you can't say the same for MAGA hats being explicit support of Donald Trump.

You're basically trying to tell me that a MAGA hat isn't proof that you support Trump and, by extension, his beliefs.

So I dunno what else to tell you other than Stay Golden, ponyboy.

I provided you with a link in which I was considered racist because I suggested Justice Thomas might have a different view on mothers being allowed to abort their child simply because of the child's race. Where is the evidence in that instance?

Also you've continually asserted that simply wearing a MAGA hat is evidence of being a racist. 

I can go around the block and take a photo of a store front window that states folks must remove hoodys before entering this establishment. Those folks are as narrow-minded as those that think wearing a MAGA hat is evidence that someone is a racist.


I have never said wearing a MAGA hat isn't evidence that you support Trump because it is. Are you really now trying to say that supporting Trump is evidence that you're a racist? 

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 07:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, I'm not saying that. All I have been saying is that it is not my understanding of the Covington incident that they were profiled as racists solely because of their hats by the media and the general public. When I see a MAGA hat I only see it as evidence of the person being a Trump supporter.

I appreciate your candor; but we'll still disagree that there were those that painted those kids as racists simply because of their headgear

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 07:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have never said wearing a MAGA hat isn't evidence that you support Trump because it is. Are you really now trying to say that supporting Trump is evidence that you're a racist? 

Wearing a MAGA hat - > Supporting Trump

Supporting Trump -> You Support his beliefs (or at least don't explicitly condemn his beliefs)

Trump holds racist beliefs

Therefore, it's possible that supporting Trump may indicate a penchant towards racism.

I'm not sure what you're tripping up on.

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 07:55 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Wearing a MAGA hat - > Supporting Trump

Supporting Trump -> You Support his beliefs (or at least don't explicitly condemn his beliefs)

Trump holds racist beliefs

Therefore, it's possible that supporting Trump may indicate a penchant towards racism.

I'm not sure what you're tripping up on.

Did you not quote Matt's reply to your position accidentally before you shared this reply?

I suppose the assertion that wearing a MAGA hat is evidence that you're a racist is tripping me up. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-09-2019, 07:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I appreciate your candor; but we'll still disagree that there were those that painted those kids as racists simply because of their headgear

I'll agree that by wearing that hat you are doing something that will cause, on first glance, some people to think negatively of you and some people to think positively of you.

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 08:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll agree that by wearing that hat you are doing something that will cause, on first glance, some people to think negatively of you and some people to think positively of you.

Agreed. But is it evidence that you're a racist?

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 07:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I provided you with a link in which I was considered racist because I suggested Justice Thomas might have a different view on mothers being allowed to abort their child simply because of the child's race. Where is the evidence in that instance?

I didn't see that link cuz you didn't quote me on it. Went back and looked at it.

So, just so I get this right, there was some law in Indiana that forbade abortion if the reasoning behind it was the race of the fetus. And the Supreme Court ruled that that portion of the law would not be maintained, meaning you could get an abortion based on race.

Thomas took issue with this because it was reminiscent to 20th century Eugenics ideology (such as those held by Margaret Sanger).


Then there was a discussion about whether or not being a minority would bias you in this discussion and whether or not hispanic counts as a minority or not...


Ultimately, GMDino thought your viewpoint regarding Hispanics not being minorities the same way black people are was racist.


I'll admit that this was a pretty liberal (eh? :) ) use of the term racist. It's a good example in your defense.


I can't really see the point GMDino was trying to make in that particular discussion. But it is notable that he specified explicitly that he did not call you a racist, just that your particular sentence was racist. Non-racist people can have racist thoughts, after all.

[*Nately120*]

(07-09-2019, 08:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Agreed. But is it evidence that you're a racist?

In the sense that perception is "truth" to most people?  Yes.  There is plenty of evidence that evidence isn't something that is particularly salient to the decision-making process of people; particularly these days. 

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 07:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Did you not quote Matt's reply to your position accidentally before you shared this reply?

I suppose the assertion that wearing a MAGA hat is evidence that you're a racist is tripping me up. 

Then we are at an impasse. I still think you're confusing what exactly evidence is (as in, the hat is not enough to call someone racist, but if they are wearing the hat and doing something arguably racist, that does make the hat evidence towards their potential racism), but we've already walked down that road and it bore no fruit, so there's little reason to repeat that journey.

[Belsnickel]

(07-09-2019, 07:55 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Wearing a MAGA hat - > Supporting Trump

Supporting Trump -> You Support his beliefs (or at least don't explicitly condemn his beliefs)

Trump holds racist beliefs

Therefore, it's possible that supporting Trump may indicate a penchant towards racism.

I'm not sure what you're tripping up on.

You are correct that it is possible, but it is merely one of many different possibilities. There can be any number of reasons that someone supports Trump, and immediately jumping to racism isn't helpful. It isn't going to be the correct logical leap to make the majority of the time. Based on the MAGA hat, the only reasonable logical conclusion is they are a Trump supporter. Anything beyond that isn't something that should be inferred without further evidence.

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 08:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You are correct that it is possible, but it is merely one of many different possibilities. There can be any number of reasons that someone supports Trump, and immediately jumping to racism isn't helpful. It isn't going to be the correct logical leap to make the majority of the time. Based on the MAGA hat, the only reasonable logical conclusion is they are a Trump supporter. Anything beyond that isn't something that should be inferred without further evidence.

Well, I guess it depends on what you define as racism. Many would tell you that being okay with racism is a form of racism. 

And if you support someone who is actively saying and doing racist things, even if they lower your taxes or whatever reason you may have, then you are, at the very least, prioritizing your own interests above those of different races. Many would tell you that prioritizing your personal political interests over the well being of those of a different race is a form of racism.

If you don't define either of those things as racism, then yea. Being a trump supporter is not inherently racist.

So if those things are not racism, then I agree with your assertion.

For what it's worth, I realize that some Trump supporters do not understand what about what Trump is saying is racist. If they choose to support Trump because they don't believe he is racist, that is another thing. But I think, when you see someone doing something that appears to have racial motivation, like staring down a native american man singing a song (at a time when we didn't have the full story), and they are also wearing a MAGA hat, the MAGA hat, in addition to their behavior, are both pieces of evidence that the person may be racist.

That doesn't mean they definitely are racist, nor does it mean the evidence is even portraying truth in its own right (evidence is misinterpreted all the time), but the evidence is unequivocally there.

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 08:21 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Then we are at an impasse. I still think you're confusing what exactly evidence is (as in, the hat is not enough to call someone racist, but if they are wearing the hat and doing something arguably racist, that does make the hat evidence towards their potential racism), but we've already walked down that road and it bore no fruit, so there's little reason to repeat that journey.

I'm confusing nothing. Doing something arguably racist is possibly evidence that you are a racist, wearing a hat supporting POTUS is not.


FWIW, I decided to drop this a few pages back but then was called out on my decision to let it lie. As I've often said:  Don't start none won't be none. 

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 08:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm confusing nothing. Doing something arguably racist is possibly evidence that you are a racist, wearing a hat supporting POTUS is not.


FWIW, I decided to drop this a few pages back but then was called out on my decision to let it lie. As I've often said:  Don't start none won't be none. 

Being at someone's house is not evidence that you're a murderer.

Being at someone's house at the same time that they were murdered is evidence that you're a murderer.

We're saying the same thing.

FWIW, I had no problem with you letting it lie. I'm glad you started some though. I've enjoyed this discussion.

[*bfine32*]

(07-09-2019, 08:36 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Being at someone's house is not evidence that you're a murderer.

Being at someone's house at the same time that they were murdered is evidence that you're a murderer.

We're saying the same thing.

FWIW, I had no problem with you letting it lie. I'm glad you started some though. I've enjoyed this discussion.

1. Wearing a hat that says MAGA is not evidence that you're a racist

2. Wearing a hat that says MAGA while saying I hate black folks is evidence that you're a racist, but not because of the hat.

3. We're not close to saying the same thing

4. It appears you did. 

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 08:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Wearing a hat that says MAGA is not evidence that you're a racist

2. Wearing a hat that says MAGA while saying I hate black folks is evidence that you're a racist, but not because of the hat.

3. We're not close to saying the same thing

4. It appears you did. 

I hope you enjoyed it equally! That's why we come to these forums, after all.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-09-2019, 04:44 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: That story saw several iterative updates as evidence was revealed.

There was the initial iteration which was "boy confronts peaceful Native American"

The second iteration, which is the one the above description recounts, was "Native American walks into group of Trump hat wearers and plays a song in boy's face."

The third iteration was after the black Hebrews video was uncovered and that one was essentially "Black Hebrews were antagonizing children (most likely) for wearing MAGA gear. Children began responding with school chants and other pep rally style call and responses. Native American walks between the two groups to try and break up the verbal fighting."

All three iterations were reported by the MSM as they were uncovered.

If those "journalists" had actually been doing their chosen profession properly to begin with, there would never have been a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd iteration of the story.  

The fact that they all jumped at the chance to paint an innocent group of kids as something they weren't, simply because it supported the political narrative that they support, shows that they are anything but actual journalists.  All of the videos were available at the same time, they chose the opportunity to SHAPE the news, rather than simply TELLING the news.  It wasn't until alternative sources started proving that they were painting a false picture of what really happened, that they started retracting and telling the full story.  I think this largely in part to the very real and actual threat of libel suits that were upon them.

Once upon a time, I actually studied journalism, even earned my degree in Mass. Comm.  One of the first things we were told in Newswriting I, was that personal opinion or bias should not be evident in any telling of events.  There are some very specific reasons why I chose not to pursue a career in what I studied.  Most of those reasons have to do with political leanings and the bias I faced from not only classmates, but prospective employers that I interviewed with.  

[CJD]

(07-09-2019, 08:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If those "journalists" had actually been doing their chosen profession properly to begin with, there would never have been a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd iteration of the story.  

The fact that they all jumped at the chance to paint an innocent group of kids as something they weren't, simply because it supported the political narrative that they support, shows that they are anything but actual journalists.  All of the videos were available at the same time, they chose the opportunity to SHAPE the news, rather than simply TELLING the news.  It wasn't until alternative sources started proving that they were painting a false picture of what really happened, that they started retracting and telling the full story.  I think this largely in part to the very real and actual threat of libel suits that were upon them.

Once upon a time, I actually studied journalism, even earned my degree in Mass. Comm.  One of the first things we were told in Newswriting I, was that personal opinion or bias should not be evident in any telling of events.  There are some very specific reasons why I chose not to pursue a career in what I studied.  Most of those reasons have to do with political leanings and the bias I faced from not only classmates, but prospective employers that I interviewed with.  

I do think that the race to "break the news" has definitely made places report stories before all the facts are out. It's all about getting the clicks nowadays, unfortunately.

The rest of your post about journalists concealing the real story sounds a bit too conspiracy theorist to me. The video that generated the third iteration was from the Black Hebrew Israelites themselves, who were not even part of the initial story as reported by the one video of the confrontation, so even if they were published at similar times, they still needed to be linked, which takes some time.

But I don't have any evidence that they didn't collude to tell a false politically driven narrative, so that discussion would ultimately end in a stalemate.

I do think it's interesting that most news sources are inherently liberal. I don't know what that says about those who pursue the career or how that affects their choices in writing articles, but it's definitely interesting.

[GMDino]

(07-09-2019, 08:15 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I didn't see that link cuz you didn't quote me on it. Went back and looked at it.

So, just so I get this right, there was some law in Indiana that forbade abortion if the reasoning behind it was the race of the fetus. And the Supreme Court ruled that that portion of the law would not be maintained, meaning you could get an abortion based on race.

Thomas took issue with this because it was reminiscent to 20th century Eugenics ideology (such as those held by Margaret Sanger).


Then there was a discussion about whether or not being a minority would bias you in this discussion and whether or not hispanic counts as a minority or not...


Ultimately, GMDino thought your viewpoint regarding Hispanics not being minorities the same way black people are was racist.


I'll admit that this was a pretty liberal (eh? :) ) use of the term racist. It's a good example in your defense.


I can't really see the point GMDino was trying to make in that particular discussion. But it is notable that he specified explicitly that he did not call you a racist, just that your particular sentence was racist. Non-racist people can have racist thoughts, after all.

Surprised this wasn't linked...

(06-12-2019, 10:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: "Vote for Beto the Whetto"

What you got?