Rich Men North of Richmond

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-30-2023, 12:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I first glanced at this and assumed you were accusing him of making a ticky tacky argument.  Then I realized he said TikTak as in "Oh you damn kids and yer tiktak and yer vidja games!"

I honestly just posted it for the fruit adventure.

[*Nately120*]

(08-30-2023, 12:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I honestly just posted it for the fruit adventure.

That was my code word for college.

[Dill]

(08-30-2023, 09:09 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not terrified, but definitely a deterrent. I will never think we are untouchable. Personally, I don't own a firearm. However, of the 20 houses on my block, I would wager 15 have guns under their roof. Also, as has been mentioned, it's a great deterrent against our own government. People have the right not to own a firearm and put their faith and trust in a government that only says they care about them, which some people do. Yet I will not take my freedom for granted by giving up my rights, or anyone else's right to own one.

As more and more people are hyped into believing the election was stolen and the "tree of liberty" needs some of that blood watering,
I become more and more worried about that "deterrent" applied to legitimate government.

I'm also worried that people could vote away democracy with the blessing of many 2nd Amendment supporters. 

Without a government protecting your rights, you won't have them, though you might have a lot of armed militias
running around deciding what your rights are for you. 

[HarleyDog]

(09-01-2023, 07:33 PM)Dill Wrote: As more and more people are hyped into believing the election was stolen and the "tree of liberty" needs some of that blood watering,
I become more and more worried about that "deterrent" applied to legitimate government.

This view here irritates me. Most have moved on except Trump and the left. At least in my day-to-day experiences.

Quote:I'm also worried that people could vote away democracy with the blessing of many 2nd Amendment supporters. 

Vote away democracy? Your going to have to dive deeper into this one. One of the things that irks many people is we think the left is throwing away our freedoms and more concerned about being PC than they are about values. 

Quote:Without a government protecting your rights, you won't have them, though you might have a lot of armed militias

running around deciding what your rights are for you. 

Your an extreme thinker with this. If anything ever happened to threaten the freedoms by hate groups, the police and citizens both would handle it. I seriously trust my neighbors more than I trust my government. Most of us don't mind change. We don't like radical, shove it down our throat change. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 07:54 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This view here irritates me. Most have moved on except Trump and the left. At least in my day-to-day experiences.

That is my experience as well.

Quote:Vote away democracy? Your going to have to dive deeper into this one. One of the things that irks many people is we think the left is throwing away our freedoms and more concerned about being PC than they are about values. 

There are certainly arguments to be made that the right is infringing on people's rights (e.g. denying service to homosexuals).  But it is undeniable that the left has significant issues with free speech (hate speech should be illegal) and most certainly the right to bear arms, which is frequently under attack.

Quote:Your an extreme thinker with this. If anything ever happened to threaten the freedoms by hate groups, the police and citizens both would handle it. I seriously trust my neighbors more than I trust my government. Most of us don't mind change. We don't like radical, shove it down our throat change. 

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 07:54 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Vote away democracy? Your going to have to dive deeper into this one. One of the things that irks many people is we think the left is throwing away our freedoms and more concerned about being PC than they are about values. 

Being "PC" is an expression of values, just different from yours. 

Regarding the bolded, what I was referring to was that so many 2A supporters seem to imagine a government taking away "rights" and so patriots have to take up arms against it to set things right. Their guns are then a "deterrent" to illegitimate government. For decades, probably even before the Turner Diaries, a prominent right wing fantasy has been government coming to take guns away, which triggers an uprising to take the country back from "liberals." 

They never seem to imagine a scenario in which 2A folks support an authoritarian government or help vote one into power to protect their "freedoms." In which case the "deterrent" would be adding to the chaos and loss of legitimate government. 

(09-01-2023, 07:54 PM)Quote:Without a government protecting your rights, you won\t have them, though you might have a lot of armed militias Wrote: running around deciding what your rights are for you.
Your an extreme thinker with this. If anything ever happened to threaten the freedoms by hate groups, the police and citizens both would handle it. I seriously trust my neighbors more than I trust my government. Most of us don't mind change. We don't like radical, shove it down our throat change. 

My thinking on this aligns with some 400 years of social contract theory, the basis of modern liberal democracy. We organize into states and governments so that we can have rights and property secure from those who would take them away. That means giving up some "freedoms." But without government it's just the law of jungle. 

Above you are imagining "hate groups" who are not part of the citizenry or police. I am not imagining such sharp and easily identifiable divisions. And "citizens handling it" doesn't sound good to me. Remember I am speaking of a situation in which government has broken down or is beginning to; I think the result would be a rather dangerous anarchy, very much aggravated if infrastructure, food and medical supplies are compromised as well. 

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 07:54 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This view here irritates me. Most have moved on except Trump and the left. At least in my day-to-day experiences.

Well last year, some 61% of Republicans still believed that Biden had stolen the election. As of Aug. 3 this year, that
number had risen, now closer to 70%, according to this CNN poll. But sure, people you know might not be talking about it as much.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/cnn-poll-republicans-think-2020-election-illegitimate/index.html

What concerns me about that is that upwards of 50 million people were mobilized by a politician and several news organizations
to swallow the lie and keep it down for years. All the moving parts of that propaganda effort are still in high gear, and it 
encourages people to believe their government is impossibly compromised and illegitimate, and only faith in one leader can
restore it. But swampy "deep state" is out to stop that savior, any way it can. 

People have not "moved on." Election denial has morphed into a battle against "weaponization" of the DoJ and FBI, which
looks like more reverse verification. The majority of GOP candidates would still support Trump if he were elected,
nevermind that no president has ever tried so directly to turn the DoJ on "enemies" or to overturn a valid election.
Doesn't matter if people say "I dislike Trump, but he's better than the Dems." They are still voting for that guy, and will
get him again if he wins--angrier and out for "retribution," and no guard rails this time around. 

You're a god guy H-Dog. Don't be angry if a fellow citizen has some misgivings about this.