Rick Santorum-Pure Democracies are no way to run a country

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2023, 12:05 PM)pally Wrote: Exactly what prejudices am I trying to justify by pointing out Santorum's statement?  I know you believe he is irrelevant and no one takes him seriously, but he states beliefs that are found in a large number of Newsmax viewers.  Trump regularly promotes Newsmax to his supporters.  Personally, I think that organization and their talking heads are full of crap.  Unfortunately, many Newsmax viewers do not share that belief. I am glad you are one who sees through their nonsense.

Your prejudice is obvious to anyone who reads your posts.  You are a strident partisan who can find nothing of value in views different than your own.  You asked, so I answered.

Moving on to the thread topic, posting a quote from Santorum and framing it as a representative opinion of the GOP or conservatives is disingenuous at best, and a deliberate smear at worse.  I don't view Tlaib or Omar's views on Israel to be representative of the Dems as a whole, but I could easily make a thread that makes that allusion, just as this thread did with Santorum.  

[grampahol]

If we had a pure democracy we wouldn't need legislators. We'd vote on every single issue large and small and get nothing done because we'd all spend all our time at the voting booth voting on the spelling of words, whether we should say happy holidays or merry Christmas or whether there ought to be a stop light in place of every stop sign. 
Santorum didn't get his name in the Urban Dictionary for nothing.. 

[BigPapaKain]

(11-09-2023, 12:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your prejudice is obvious to anyone who reads your posts.  You are a strident partisan who can find nothing of value in views different than your own.  You asked, so I answered.

Moving on to the thread topic, posting a quote from Santorum and framing it as a representative opinion of the GOP or conservatives is disingenuous at best, and a deliberate smear at worse.  I don't view Tlaib or Omar's views on Israel to be representative of the Dems as a whole, but I could easily make a thread that makes that allusion, just as this thread did with Santorum.  

Has anyone from the GoP rebuked his statement?

[Belsnickel]

(11-09-2023, 05:42 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Has anyone from the GoP rebuked his statement?

Why should they? He isn't wrong.

I swear, the controversy over these comments is the dumbest I have seen in a while.

[Dill]

(11-09-2023, 12:05 PM)pally Wrote: Exactly what prejudices am I trying to justify by pointing out Santorum's statement?  I know you believe he is irrelevant and no one takes him seriously, but he states beliefs that are found in a large number of Newsmax viewers.  Trump regularly promotes Newsmax to his supporters.  Personally, I think that organization and their talking heads are full of crap.  Unfortunately, many Newsmax viewers do not share that belief. I am glad you are one who sees through their nonsense.

None. You are just reporting what he said. That's not framing him as "the voice of the GOP." 

He's significant enough to get news time as a commentator on Fox and Newsmax. 

And he's certainly a bellweather for some elements of his party. 

Since at least 2020 people in his forum have been discussing the authoritarian turn in the GOP,
and the effort of many to work around the popular vote to keep minority control of government.
That's the underlying theme of all our discussions of Gerrymandering and 1/6 and voter ID laws
and GOP rejection of Liz Cheney and creative legal theories about legislatures picking electors regardless of popular vote.
Add to that the ongoing intimidation of election officials and judges and threats to "weaponize" the DOJ to go
after his enemies--including his former AG--when Trump returns to power

So what people should be taking from this is not that "Santorum doesn't speak for the GOP,"
but that too many in the party are tending in this anti-democratic direction--including leaders who should know better.

The only serious question is whether this tendency grows or shrinks during 2024. That will give
some indication of whether it is becoming fixed as the GOP's identity. 

[GMDino]

A lot of former politicians go on television and say things.  

Newt Gingrich still does and he was a disgrace when he left office.

Hell I remember when some called Nixon a statesman.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2023, 01:27 PM)Dill Wrote: None. You are just reporting what he said. That's not framing him as "the voice of the GOP." 

Suuuurrrreee she's not.  I mean she only said the following.

(11-08-2023, 04:22 PM)pally Wrote: Rick Santorum, noted right-wing conservative, said "pure democracies are no way to run a country"

or in other words...its not fair the majority of voters have the right to vote directly on things that conservatives don't like

Conservatives, as a group.  So she absolutely did use Santorum as representative of not only the GOP but conservatives in general.  You can't stop lying even when the proof is in the very thread you're posting in.

[*Nately120*]

So is what Santorum is saying on brand with the modern GOP, though?  I don't want to overgeneralize, but he seems like he's towing the same "we need to change the process, not the policies" line of thinking his party's A-listers have adopted.

As I said, I have more memory of this guy since I'm in PA but he seems like he's once again glomming onto the rhetoric of the head of the GOP.  That time instead of talking about the issues with our electoral process impeding the GOP goals he was trying to win PA by talking up George W Bush in a state where said president's approval rating was 10+ points underwater and he had lost the state twice.  It's harder to blame him this time as not towing the party narrative now is what leads to expulsion and genuine irrelevance.

So even if Santorum isn't ultra relevant himself, you can at least count on him to parrot the talking points of the most relevant GOP folks.  Call him a C list or lower republican, but he's still pushing what the top of the party is pushing.

[GMDino]

(11-10-2023, 03:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Suuuurrrreee she's not.  I mean she only said the following.



Conservatives, as a group.  So she absolutely did use Santorum as representative of not only the GOP but conservatives in general.  You can't stop lying even when the proof is in the very thread you're posting in.

She didn't call him "the voice of the GOP" though.  YOU said she was treating him as such..

She posted what he said and her interpretation...which was fair as he was talking as a conservative and how putting items like abortion rights and marijuana legalization hurts them.

He was right, and most sane conservatives probably agreed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2023, 04:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: She didn't call him "the voice of the GOP" though.  YOU said she was treating him as such..

She posted what he said and her interpretation...which was fair as he was talking as a conservative and how putting items like abortion rights and marijuana legalization hurts them.

He was right, and most sane conservatives probably agreed.

You're correct in a sense, she didn't say the GOP she said conservatives in general.  So, it's actually a broader brush than I originally claimed.  I swear the knots you guys will twist yourselves into to avoid criticizing someone on your end of the ideological spectrum.  Th tribalism is so strong it's almost impressive.

[*pally*]

(11-10-2023, 03:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Suuuurrrreee she's not.  I mean she only said the following.



Conservatives, as a group.  So she absolutely did use Santorum as representative of not only the GOP but conservatives in general.  You can't stop lying even when the proof is in the very thread you're posting in.

no I simply identified him as a noted conservative but like always you read things with your own twist

[BigPapaKain]

(11-10-2023, 03:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Suuuurrrreee she's not.  I mean she only said the following.



Conservatives, as a group.  So she absolutely did use Santorum as representative of not only the GOP but conservatives in general.  You can't stop lying even when the proof is in the very thread you're posting in.

So he's not a noted right-wing conservative?

[GMDino]

(11-10-2023, 04:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're correct in a sense, she didn't say the GOP she said conservatives in general.  So, it's actually a broader brush than I originally claimed.  I swear the knots you guys will twist yourselves into to avoid criticizing someone on your end of the ideological spectrum.  Th tribalism is so strong it's almost impressive.

You literally put words in her mouth and said:

(11-08-2023, 06:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Santorum has been out of office for 16+ years.  Yet you're treating him as a voice of the GOP?  Got any Strom Thurmond quotes you want brought up?

She said no such thing. 

She posted what he said and then said "in other words"...her interpretation.  If you have an issue with THAT that is one thing but you are going after her for something you said she said.


If anyone is twisting into knots it is you.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2023, 04:46 PM)pally Wrote: no I simply identified him as a noted conservative but like always you read things with your own twist

(11-10-2023, 04:57 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: So he's not a noted right-wing conservative?

not·ed
/ˈnōdəd/

adjective

1. well known; famous.
   "the restaurant is noted for its high standards of cuisine"
   

Is Santorum famous or well known?  I'd say no to both.  I doubt most Americans could say who he was and what he did in government.  Is he a leading voice for the GOP or conservatives in general, as using the term "noted" would indicate?  No, he is not.

Pally, quit equivocating and just own your BS.  You literally said "or in other words...its not fair the majority of voters have the right to vote directly on things that conservatives don't like".  You didn't say "things that Rick Santorum doesn't like", you said things "conservatives don't like".  If you don't want to be accused of painting Santorum as a voice for all "conservatives" then use words that actually reflect that and own it when you don't.


Like I said, tying yourself in knots.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2023, 06:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: You literally put words in her mouth and said:


She said no such thing. 

She posted what he said and then said "in other words"...her interpretation.  If you have an issue with THAT that is one thing but you are going after her for something you said she said.


If anyone is twisting into knots it is you.

Yes, reading comprehension failure, I did.  As you already noted I was incorrect. I gave her too much credit, my apologies.  She didn't paint him as the voice of the GOP, she painted him as the voice of conservatives in general.  Like I said, tying yourself in knots.

[BigPapaKain]

I mean that no notable conservatives have rebuked his statement kind of makes it appear they - as a party - agree with pally's assessment of the situation.

Also, given the GoP's track record of throwing a massive hissy fit every time they've lost an election (and even some that the won) and their abuse of gerrymandering, it's not a stretch to believe that they're against actual fair elections.

[*pally*]

(11-10-2023, 06:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, reading comprehension failure, I did.  As you already noted I was incorrect. I gave her too much credit, my apologies.  She didn't paint him as the voice of the GOP, she painted him as the voice of conservatives in general.  Like I said, tying yourself in knots.

you are trying way too hard 

You may not think he is well known in conservative politics, I however do.  He is at least well-known to the crowd that watches Newsmax. And if you were to be honest, you knew exactly who he was without having to look him up.

My ENTIRE post referenced Rick Santorum and his words and how I interpreted HIS words but heck, judging from the statement and actions of Ohio's conservative leaders, he was spot on that, at least in Ohio. They are royally pissed off at democracy having a say in stopping their agenda.  And considering he was talking about Ohio's votes from Tuesday night, my interpretation as to what he was really trying to say was spot-on.

Maybe conservatives need to distance themselves from people who don't believe in Democracy if they get offended by even thinking they are colored with the same brush

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2023, 08:14 PM)pally Wrote: you are trying way too hard

I'm literally quoting you, it's not difficult by any means.

Quote:You may not think he is well known in conservative politics, I however do.  He is at least well-known to the crowd that watches Newsmax. And if you were to be honest, you knew exactly who he was without having to look him up.

By your own statements I am a "conservative" (even thought I am not).  You are a leftist, by my perception a far leftist.  I haven't heard the Santorum name brought up in years, until you posted this thread.  This reeks of you seeking out confirmation bias

Quote:My ENTIRE post referenced Rick Santorum and his words and how I interpreted HIS words but heck, judging from the statement and actions of Ohio's conservative leaders, he was spot on that, at least in Ohio. They are royally pissed off at democracy having a say in stopping their agenda.  And considering he was talking about Ohio's votes from Tuesday night, my interpretation as to what he was really trying to say was spot-on.

You didn't say "Ohio conservatives", you said conservatives in general.  Again, your own words work against you.  Own them or admit you misspoke. 

Quote:Maybe conservatives need to distance themselves from people who don't believe in Democracy if they get offended by even thinking they are colored with the same brush

Again the generic "conservatives" label.  Do you mean Ohio conservatives this time or conservatives in general this time?  Since you clearly don't know yourself some context would be helpful.

[Belsnickel]

(11-10-2023, 07:42 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I mean that no notable conservatives have rebuked his statement kind of makes it appear they - as a party - agree with pally's assessment of the situation.

Also, given the GoP's track record of throwing a massive hissy fit every time they've lost an election (and even some that the won) and their abuse of gerrymandering, it's not a stretch to believe that they're against actual fair elections.

Look, I am on record countless times expressing my dismay over the anti-democratic, authoritarian wannabes that make up the MAGA movement. It is something I critique the GOP for on a constant basis. However, what Santorum said was not outrageous. It wasn't inaccurate and it doesn't require rebuke from anyone. Honestly, when I see people that are left-of-center calling for such things it just tells me that they are either ignorant of our system of governance and the history of democracy or they are letting their biases get the better of them in an irrational criticism of someone they ideologically oppose. Usually there is a bit of both mixed in.

[*pally*]

(11-10-2023, 08:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm literally quoting you, it's not difficult by any means.



By your own statements I am a "conservative" (even thought I am not).  You are a leftist, by my perception a far leftist.  I haven't heard the Santorum name brought up in years, until you posted this thread.  This reeks of you seeking out confirmation bias




You didn't say "Ohio conservatives", you said conservatives in general.  Again, your own words work against you.  Own them or admit you misspoke. 


Again the generic "conservatives" label.  Do you mean Ohio conservatives this time or conservatives in general this time?  Since you clearly don't know yourself some context would be helpful.

You know, after reflection, you are right.  I obviously am so blinded by my own opinions that I had no idea what I wrote.  I am really grateful that you took the time and effort to mansplain it to me otherwise I would still be lost writing actual words that mean what they said not what someone else thinks they say.

Thank you so much for your valuable input.