Robot Bomb

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-09-2016, 05:25 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: The difference is this is not the military...and the use of a bomb like this is just another step toward militarization of our police.  I think that's what most people are uncomfortable with.

And?

Is the military a threat to you?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-09-2016, 04:36 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Reducing the risk of death or injury to officers can be a slippery slope, IMO. What if some department somewhere decides that poison gas might serve the same interest?

Not likely, but I'm just throwing it out there to fuel discussion.

I think police departments balance the safety of their officers with the safety of the communities they serve everyday. What you're worried about has been a concern since the first police force was established. This is just a new technique which falls under the larger umbrella of the appropriate use of force.

[Rotobeast]

Ok.... I'm not defending this action, I actually think it is a little overkill.

That being said....
This act was in a parking garage and he had explosives, right ?
What if this cat rigged explosives to the main structural supports and was waiting for enough cops to come in and bring it all down on them ?
How could you handle that situation, quickly.
They used a robot with explosives.
The dude wouldn't expect that and they knew they could stop him, before he hit the switch.
I would have liked to seen the guy in cuffs, but I don't know all the details.
Perhaps they found his endgame plans in his home.
Dunno

[Belsnickel]

(07-09-2016, 09:47 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Ok.... I'm not defending this action, I actually think it is a little overkill.

That being said....
This act was in a parking garage and he had explosives, right ?
What if this cat rigged explosives to the main structural supports and was waiting for enough cops to come in and bring it all down on them ?
How could you handle that situation, quickly.
They used a robot with explosives.
The dude wouldn't expect that and they knew they could stop him, before he hit the switch.
I would have liked to seen the guy in cuffs, but I don't know all the details.
Perhaps they found his endgame plans in his home.
Dunno

I guess my thought process is when the hell did a bomb delivering robotic system become a part of the LE arsenal? I am not even thinking about it in this incident alone, but it was something they already had. Why did a LE agency feel the need to have a bomb to use, presumably, on their citizens?

This guy was never going to see the inside of a jail cell, but Dallas having a bomb in their weapons locker for this just concerns me.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-09-2016, 09:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I guess my thought process is when the hell did a bomb delivering robotic system become a part of the LE arsenal?

I assume it's the same robots they use to attempt to defuse or destroy bombs.  And, well, I'm guessing they often use some sort of bomb to explode suspicious packages.  

When they say they destroyed a suspicious package, they mean they blew it up.  I would guess SWAT has some C-4 in its arsenal.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/revealed-how-police-made-bomb-8384229

[Belsnickel]

(07-09-2016, 10:10 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I assume it's the same robots they use to attempt to defuse or destroy bombs.  And, well, I'm guessing they often use some sort of bomb to explode suspicious packages.  

When they say they destroyed a suspicious package, they mean they blew it up.  I would guess SWAT has some C-4 in its arsenal.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/revealed-how-police-made-bomb-8384229

I have to admit that makes me feel slightly better. My concern now lies with whether this was a preconceived possibility in some procedures somewhere, or was this spontaneously thought up? There are a lot of questions I have about this and it's use in policing, because I don't think this should ever be an option. JMHO.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-09-2016, 10:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to admit that makes me feel slightly better. My concern now lies with whether this was a preconceived possibility in some procedures somewhere, or was this spontaneously thought up? There are a lot of questions I have about this and it's use in policing, because I don't think this should ever be an option. JMHO.

That article said it was improvised, but has been an occasional military tactic and something SWAT teams (not necessarily this SWAT team) have practiced.

Said it was the first time that had been done in the US.  And the circumstances here were unique, if not also extraordinary.  I don't really have issue with it, but in situations like this you better be damn sure he was acting alone and not part of a bigger plot.

I do agree with you, however, given more of these nuts seem to be wearing body armor and heavily armed....that this may be used again and more frequently, which is concerning.  Or who's to say they won't use an RPG if Rambo is going berserk in the streets?

[Bengalzona]

I'm pretty convinced, from what I've heard anyway, that the whole thing was improvised. That police bomb was something the bomb squad had in stock for sympathetic detonations, as oncemore mentioned earlier.

People are saying that he was trapped in a parking garage, firing at police and saying he wanted to "kill white people and police" and that he had set IED's. I haven't heard any confirmation that he had actually set IED's, though. Someone said that police sharpshooters couldn't get a clear shot at him.

That said, is there a reason they didn't try to wait cordone the area and wait him out?

[Bengalzona]

I'm gonna throw this scenario out there for consideration and discussion:

What if the suspect was not an angry black man. What if he were a foreign-born terrorist/jihadist? Would that influence your opinion on using the bomb?

I hate to say it but in my opinion, yes, it would make a difference. Not fully sure why I feel that way either.

[Belsnickel]

(07-09-2016, 11:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I'm gonna throw this scenario out there for consideration and discussion:

What if the suspect was not an angry black man. What if he were a foreign-born terrorist/jihadist? Would that influence your opinion on using the bomb?

I hate to say it but in my opinion, yes, it would make a difference. Not fully sure why I feel that way either.

It wouldn't for me. Just like me being against weaponized drones.

I know it's probably weird, but removing the personal element to killing another person is not something I like. It should always be a last resort, and if the personal element is removed I feel we will become more comfortable with killing. I know drone pilots have had PTSD and there is still someone pulling that trigger, but something about it being done from a position of safety takes away the ide that this use of deadly force truly is a last resort.

[Bengalbug]

(07-09-2016, 11:53 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I'm pretty convinced, from what I've heard anyway, that the whole thing was improvised. That police bomb was something the bomb squad had in stock for sympathetic detonations, as oncemore mentioned earlier.

People are saying that he was trapped in a parking garage, firing at police and saying he wanted to "kill white people and police" and that he had set IED's. I haven't heard any confirmation that he had actually set IED's, though. Someone said that police sharpshooters couldn't get a clear shot at him.

That said, is there a reason they didn't try to wait cordone the area and wait him out?

He just killed 5 cops and injured 7 more... At the time they thought multiple shooters. Mentioned having bombs everywhere- whether they found them or not doesn't matter. If a guys kills 5 cops and mentions having placed bombs you have to take him for his word.

What if they didn't kill him the way he did and he had a bomb strapped to him and somehow got in proximity and killed more.

I have no problem how they take cRe of a guy who is responsible for more lost of life of officials since 9/11.

once you open fire at police and kill I honestly think "civil" goes out the window and it becomes by any means necessary (assuming innocent lives are not at risk- of course)

Maybe I am wrong, but if they waited him out and we lost 2 more lives people would ask why they didn't use another mean. "Police have robots that can detonate bombs, couldn't they have used that versus waiting?"

Dammed if you do dammed if you don't.

[Rotobeast]

(07-09-2016, 11:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I'm gonna throw this scenario out there for consideration and discussion:

What if the suspect was not an angry black man. What if he were a foreign-born terrorist/jihadist? Would that influence your opinion on using the bomb?

I hate to say it but in my opinion, yes, it would make a difference. Not fully sure why I feel that way either.

With me, it depends on whether he's a citizen or not.
If he is, then I'd like to see due process.
If not, vaporize away.
They never existed.

I just want to state that the guy they killed was exactly the type of guy I said was the reason for the police needing military equipment.
An MRAP goes a long way in getting officers into an area safely.

[GMDino]

(07-10-2016, 08:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It wouldn't for me. Just like me being against weaponized drones.

I know it's probably weird, but removing the personal element to killing another person is not something I like. It should always be a last resort, and if the personal element is removed I feel we will become more comfortable with killing. I know drone pilots have had PTSD and there is still someone pulling that trigger, but something about it being done from a position of safety takes away the  ide that this use of deadly force truly is a last resort.

Agree.

But from what I am reading here and elsewhere this guy was worse because he killed cops.  And they are more important I guess?  I mean several people, not just on this board, have said he was going to get killed no matter what because of who he killed...not just because he killed.  I find that an interesting take given that some others have said police need held to a higher standard because of their position of power and that idea seems to get knocked down because "they are only human".

[Bengalzona]

(07-10-2016, 10:36 AM)GMDino Wrote: Agree.

But from what I am reading here and elsewhere this guy was worse because he killed cops.  And they are more important I guess?  I mean several people, not just on this board, have said he was going to get killed no matter what because of who he killed...not just because he killed.  I find that an interesting take given that some others have said police need held to a higher standard because of their position of power and that idea seems to get knocked down because "they are only human".

So, if we go after people who are suspected of attacking or killing cops with a search and destroy attitude, what do we do with cops who are suspected of going rogue and murdering? 

[GMDino]

(07-10-2016, 11:22 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: So, if we go after people who are suspected of attacking or killing cops with a search and destroy attitude, what do we do with cops who are suspected of going rogue and murdering? 

Depends on if they go after other officers I guess.

[Benton]

(07-09-2016, 11:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I'm gonna throw this scenario out there for consideration and discussion:

What if the suspect was not an angry black man. What if he were a foreign-born terrorist/jihadist? Would that influence your opinion on using the bomb?

I hate to say it but in my opinion, yes, it would make a difference. Not fully sure why I feel that way either.

To me, there's still the need to try and do it without
Using lethal force as the first approach.

[GMDino]

(07-10-2016, 12:02 PM)Benton Wrote: To me, there's still the need to try and do it without
Using lethal force as the first approach.

Yes, but this guy was taunting the police they just said.  Singing even.  

He was behind a brick wall.

He had to be blown up.

[Rotobeast]

(07-10-2016, 11:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: Depends on if they go after other officers I guess.

Or if they had a bad day ?

[GMDino]

(07-10-2016, 12:22 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Or if they had a bad day ?

Exactly.  They are only human.

And that applies to everyone even when I specifically say the police.  

[CageTheBengal]

I don't really care how we killed the guy honestly and if it started a trend of using robots more instead of human I'm all for it. Human error and fear is the Achilles heel to the police today. They can't even stop a black man and go through the normal process of pulling someone over without peeing down their leg and pulling a gun on someone. So the more we take them out of the process the better imo. Some obviously can't handle high pressure situations and aren't even physically built to do it (Which is why they rely on weapons more. The cop with an ass as big as a VW isn't chasing anybody down.) so let them take desk jobs.