Roe Vs Wade Overturned

[Dill]

(08-24-2023, 07:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect.  You have to have a majority to enact legislation to gerrymander..  This has been stated by me several times and you've yet to refute it.

Why would I "refute" it? Maybe we're approaching this from the wrong angle.

In your words, is anything wrong with gerrymandering? 

And is it your assumption that a party cannot be a majority in a state legislature if the other party receives more votes and so represents more people? 

(08-24-2023, 07:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is the first time you're mentioning the filibuster in this thread.  I'll reiterate that the Dems had zero issue with the filibuster during Trump's first two years in office.  Odd that.

So? Seems you are again refuting some claim which has never been made.

(08-24-2023, 07:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except it does, using your own words.

Which of my "words" predicates the Senate on minority control?

When you make claims like this you should show a reader exactly what you are refering to.  

[GMDino]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/13/alabama-pregnant-woman-jail-lawsuit

Quote:An Alabama woman was imprisoned for ‘endangering’ her fetus. She gave birth in a jail shower
Exclusive: Ashley Caswell, one of a growing number of jailed pregnant women in Etowah county, is suing officials after she was denied care

Sam Levin in Los Angeles
@SamTLevin
Fri 13 Oct 2023 14.00 EDT

• [/url]
• [url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=An+Alabama+woman+was+imprisoned+for+%E2%80%98endangering%E2%80%99+her+fetus.+She+gave+birth+in+a+jail+shower&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fus-news%2F2023%2Foct%2F13%2Falabama-pregnant-woman-jail-lawsuit%3FCMP%3Dshare_btn_tw]
  
  

In March 2021, sheriffs in Etowah county, Alabama, arrested Ashley Caswell on accusations that she’d tested positive for methamphetamine while pregnant and was “endangering” her fetus.

Caswell, who was two months pregnant at the time, became one of a growing number of women imprisoned in the county in the name of protecting their “unborn children”.

But over the next seven months of incarceration for “chemical endangerment” in the Etowah county detention center (ECDC), Caswell was denied regular access to prenatal visits, even as officials were aware her pregnancy was high-risk due to her hypertension and abnormal pap smears, according to a lawsuit filed on Friday against the county and the sheriff’s department. She was also denied her prescribed psychiatric medication and slept on a thin mat on the concrete floor of the detention center for her entire pregnancy.


In October, when her water broke and she pleaded to be taken to a hospital, her lawyer says, officials told her to “sleep it off” and “wait until Monday” to deliver – two days away.


During nearly 12 hours of labor, staff gave her only Tylenol for her pain, the suit says, allegedly telling her to “stop screaming”, to “deal with the pain” and that she was “not in full labor”. Caswell lost amniotic fluid and blood and was alone and standing up in a jail shower when she ultimately delivered her child, according to the complaint and her medical records. She nearly bled to death, her lawyers say.

After she was taken to a hospital, she was diagnosed with placental abruption, a condition in which the placenta separates from the wall of the uterus and the fetus is deprived of oxygen, meaning there was a risk of stillbirth. The baby survived, but Caswell was immediately separated from her newborn.

“Giving birth to my son without any medical help in the jail shower was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. My body was falling apart, and no one would listen to me. No one cared,” Caswell said in a statement. “I thought I’d lose my baby, my life, and never see my other kids again.”

The lawsuit, filed by the non-profit groups Pregnancy Justice and the Southern Poverty Law Center, is the first case to challenge the conditions for jailed pregnant women in Etowah county, which advocates say is ramping up its prosecutions. Data suggests the county is the national leader in arresting women under the guise of protecting their fetuses.

“The sheer level of callousness here and complete disregard for human suffering is part of a broader scheme to criminalize and incarcerate as many pregnant women as possible in a way that is unprecedented across the country,” said Emma Roth, senior staff attorney at Pregnancy Justice.


Ashley Caswell. Photograph: Courtesy Ashley Caswell
Caswell’s experience, advocates say, shines a light on the life-threatening mistreatment and neglect that pregnant women can face behind bars. And, they argue, it exposes the consequences of the “fetal personhood movement”, which seeks to legally define fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses as people. The concept, enshrined in expanding anti-abortion laws, has led to increased surveillance and criminalization of pregnant people, with women punished for the outcomes of their pregnancies or other actions that police claim endangered their fetuses.

After Caswell delivered her baby alone and lost consciousness, staff still refused to render aid and instead took photos of her baby without her consent, her lawyers allege. When she returned to the jail from the hospital, staff denied her access to her prescribed breast pump and ibuprofen.

“Etowah county claims they prosecute women to protect their fetus, or what they refer to as the ‘unborn child’, from harm. This case shows they’re doing precisely the opposite,” said Roth, who said the abuses Caswell endured were tantamount to “torture”. “Once [women like Caswell are] in jail, they’re deprived of the most basic prenatal care and humane living conditions.”

Caswell, who has faced several chemical endangerment charges over the years, is now in state prison, serving a 15-year sentence. She was convicted of a “Class C” felony endangerment, which doesn’t require evidence that the fetus was harmed, but merely exposed to substances.

Pregnancy Justice reported this year that Alabama had the highest number of pregnancy criminalization cases in the country from 2006 to 2022, the year Roe v Wade was overturned. The group logged 649 cases in which women in the state were arrested or faced other criminal consequences in the name of protecting their fetuses or to punish actions that authorities said endangered their pregnancies. Etowah county has the highest rate of these arrests in the state, the Alabama news site AL.com recently reported, citing 257 arrests of pregnant women and new mothers from 2015 to 2023.

The suit also cites past cases of alleged neglect of pregnant women in the ECDC jail. In 2019, staff refused to take a woman to the hospital for five days after her water broke prematurely, and she later lost her baby, the complaint says. And in 2020, another woman was allegedly forced to give birth alone without medical assistance or pain medication.

Etowah county faced national scrutiny last year when a 23-year-old woman was arrested during a traffic stop after she disclosed to officers that she’d smoked marijuana two days earlier, the day she learned she was pregnant. And a separate lawsuit last year alleged that Etowah county had arrested a woman for “chemical endangerment”, alleging she was exposing her fetus to drugs, only to discover she wasn’t pregnant.

The prosecutions fall under an Alabama law adopted in 2006 with the intent to protect children from the hazards of meth labs.

Women across the country have increasingly been jailed for pregnancy outcomes, including miscarriages and stillbirths.

The crackdown has occurred despite research showing that policies that punish drug use during pregnancy can result in worse birth outcomes in part because people avoid getting addiction treatment and prenatal care out of fear of arrest. Physician experts have also testified that these prosecutions can be rooted in “medical misinformation”, with law enforcement linking certain pregnancy outcomes to drug exposure without evidence.

The Etowah county sheriff’s department did not immediately respond to requests for comment on Friday.

Jody Willoughby, the Etowah county district attorney, did not comment on his office’s policy of prosecuting “chemical endangerment” cases or Caswell’s lawsuit. But he said in an email that Caswell’s 15-year sentence included an initial “community corrections” placement, meaning an alternative program outside of jail, but that she was sent to state prison after her probation was revoked. Records show officials moved to have her complete her sentence in prison after a positive drug test.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-14-2023, 11:59 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/13/alabama-pregnant-woman-jail-lawsuit

The Party of Life in action, folks.

[*pally*]

It is never about the life of the unborn...it has always been about controlling women

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-14-2023, 12:59 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The Party of Life in action, folks.

I will agree it was handled very poorly. 

(10-14-2023, 06:12 PM)pally Wrote: It is never about the life of the unborn...it has always been about controlling women

Tired of the Bull Shit de facto party response.

So you think it's OK for a drug abuser to have an effed up child because of her addiction?
What about the inalienable rights of an Unborn child? Some of you argue the heck out of Inalienable rights of Immigrants, but when it comes to the Unborn, they are just blobs of cells to you.  

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2023, 12:43 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So you think it's OK for a drug abuser to have an effed up child because of her addiction?

I guess it depends on what is doing the effing up.  I'm not a woman and I don't have kids so I'm out of touch with this stuff but are women who drink alcohol or the water in Flint, MI while pregnant put in prison?  

Over a decade ago I had a girlfriend whose brother's baby mama was drinking and smoking and living off of cheap fast food and living on the filthy side of town while pregnant and I saw it as "business as usual for dumbass people" rather than something where I should have dialed 911.  

[CJD]

(10-16-2023, 12:43 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I will agree it was handled very poorly. 


Tired of the Bull Shit de facto party response.

So you think it's OK for a drug abuser to have an effed up child because of her addiction?
What about the inalienable rights of an Unborn child? Some of you argue the heck out of Inalienable rights of Immigrants, but when it comes to the Unborn, they are just blobs of cells to you.  

The officials in that story were not concerned about effing up the child. They wanted to punish the mother for being a drug addict. And they used the prison system to hold authority over her actions.

This use of authority led to her and her child nearly dying after missing appointments, not having access to required healthcare and treatments and forcing her into uncomfortable and hostile living conditions that would likely have a negative impact on the child anyway.

If they had imprisoned her and forced her into rehabilitation, ensuring she was making it to her doctor's appointments on time and had treatment and comfort available to ensure the safety of the child, I could see your argument.

But they didn't do that. They did everything they could to make the mother's life worse and more dangerous for both her and her child.

We keep hearing that the Republicans are concerned for the inalienable rights of the unborn child.

It's time we begin seeing that concern in action.

[Dill]

(10-16-2023, 12:43 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Some of you argue the heck out of Inalienable rights of Immigrants, but when it comes to the Unborn, they are just blobs of cells to you.  

OMike, this seems like the bolded could cut both ways. I.e.,--

Some of you argue about the inalienable rights of the unborn, but when it comes to immigrants they are just blobs of cells to you.

I'm just curious as to how the concept of "unalienable" rights gets applied across different circumstances. Human rights can inconvenience
people/societies in different ways. Then we are ready to rethink them. (Not excepting pro choicers from this observation.)

What makes rights inalienable? I'm guessing it might depend on what you take to be the ground of rights.

E.g., in my case, it is not religion.

But in some cases I find religion grounding very praiseworthy behavior, which doesn't seem especially selective--
like Catholics who are against abortion because they say they hold all human life sacred at whatever stage,
and also work in soup kitchens, harbor undocumented immigrants, and oppose the death penalty.

(I don't know what your ground for opposing abortion is, OMike; for all I know you work in soup kitchens too.)

[BigPapaKain]

(10-16-2023, 12:43 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I will agree it was handled very poorly. 

Handled very poorly - that's all you've got to say about it? 

They did about an equal amount of damage to that unborn child as the mother did before she was in jail by denying them the doctors appointments and pre-natal care. Are any of them going to go to jail? Nah fam - they're dudes. Dudes don't get in trouble for harming the unborn. 

Tell me again how it's not about controlling women and done for the safety of the unborn. I never get tired of the lie.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Really weird how not one of you offered up a way to prevent this going forward... yet, quick to criticize the actions of the people involved no matter the political affiliations.

This is your normal situation.

[*pally*]

(10-16-2023, 07:24 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Really weird how not one of you offered up a way to prevent this going forward... yet, quick to criticize the actions of the people involved no matter the political affiliations.

This is your normal situation.

we can start by placing addicts in rehab instead of prison

[CJD]

(10-16-2023, 07:24 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Really weird how not one of you offered up a way to prevent this going forward... yet, quick to criticize the actions of the people involved no matter the political affiliations.

This is your normal situation.

I said "If they had imprisoned her and forced her into rehabilitation, ensuring she was making it to her doctor's appointments on time and had treatment and comfort available to ensure the safety of the child, I could see your argument."


Is that not "a way to prevent this going forward?"

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2023, 08:42 PM)pally Wrote: we can start by placing addicts in rehab instead of prison

Both of those sound expensive, can't we just say kids being born effed up are all in god's plan and appreciate the cheap labor they'll provide?  I think I'm joking, but I'm in a cynical mood.  I think this is what we will end up doing.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-16-2023, 08:42 PM)pally Wrote: we can start by placing addicts in rehab instead of prison

Exactly, problem is forcing someone into involuntary commitment for substance abuse is not legal for adults in Alabama. So catch 22. 

What do you do? Good people were put in a situation they were terribly ill-equiped to handle and are now made out to be some horrible "woman controlling" individuals when they were simply trying to do the right thing and because of lack of laws they ended up nearly failing completely. 

Maybe we should be asking the politicians to create laws that allow Addicts to be legally involuntary committed ESPECIALLY pregnant ones so that they can get the help they need. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-16-2023, 09:34 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I said "If they had imprisoned her and forced her into rehabilitation, ensuring she was making it to her doctor's appointments on time and had treatment and comfort available to ensure the safety of the child, I could see your argument."


Is that not "a way to prevent this going forward?"

See my previous comment about involuntary commitment being illegal in Alabama

[GMDino]

(10-17-2023, 02:35 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Exactly, problem is forcing someone into involuntary commitment for substance abuse is not legal for adults in Alabama. So catch 22. 

What do you do? Good people were put in a situation they were terribly ill-equiped to handle and are now made out to be some horrible "woman controlling" individuals when they were simply trying to do the right thing and because of lack of laws they ended up nearly failing completely. 

Maybe we should be asking the politicians to create laws that allow Addicts to be legally involuntary committed ESPECIALLY pregnant ones so that they can get the help they need. 

Those "good people" completely ignored the woman and refused her even the most basic care...while she was under their control.

Wanna try again?

[CJD]

(10-17-2023, 02:36 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: See my previous comment about involuntary commitment being illegal in Alabama

It beats involuntary imprisonment and neglect. 

[*pally*]

(10-17-2023, 02:35 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Exactly, problem is forcing someone into involuntary commitment for substance abuse is not legal for adults in Alabama. So catch 22. 

What do you do? Good people were put in a situation they were terribly ill-equiped to handle and are now made out to be some horrible "woman controlling" individuals when they were simply trying to do the right thing and because of lack of laws they ended up nearly failing completely. 

Maybe we should be asking the politicians to create laws that allow Addicts to be legally involuntary committed ESPECIALLY pregnant ones so that they can get the help they need. 

So instead you force pregnant women into dirty, nasty, jail cells. They are provided with a diet not designed to provide enough calories for a developing fetus. They receive no or limited prenatal care. And they are left to labor for days and deliver in a dirty bathroom.

It’s no different than a puppy mill.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-17-2023, 09:06 AM)GMDino Wrote: Those "good people" completely ignored the woman and refused her even the most basic care...while she was under their control.

Wanna try again?

Sure, they tried to help, just because it didn't work out as planned isn't all on them. 

(10-17-2023, 09:34 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It beats involuntary imprisonment and neglect. 

If you don't believe that good people can sometimes do bad things then you must hold yourselves to some very high ground. I'm sure you never tried to do the right thing and it backfired on you and ended up making things worse. 

As i said there was no guidelines and laws here to direct these types of incidences, and that lead to inactivity on what to do and how to deal with this.

The onus is on the politicians for not providing the guidelines for these situations.

(10-17-2023, 09:44 AM)pally Wrote: So instead you force pregnant women into dirty, nasty, jail cells. They are provided with a diet not designed to provide enough calories for a developing fetus.  They receive no or limited prenatal care.  And they are left to labor for days and deliver in a dirty bathroom.

It’s no different than a puppy mill.

Show me where I said that. Play your games with someone else.

[CJD]

(10-17-2023, 11:53 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: If you don't believe that good people can sometimes do bad things then you must hold yourselves to some very high ground. I'm sure you never tried to do the right thing and it backfired on you and ended up making things worse. 

As i said there was no guidelines and laws here to direct these types of incidences, and that lead to inactivity on what to do and how to deal with this.

The onus is on the politicians for not providing the guidelines for these situations.

I never said good people can not sometimes do bad things. I'm not even passing any particular moral judgement on the people in this situation. Just that it was carried out poorly. You claimed no one gave you a solution, I pointed out that my post had an implied solution that would require legislation. That would include the onus of the politicians drawing up and passing guidelines that would result in that solution.