Roe vs Wade vs SCOTUS legitimacy

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2022, 08:09 PM)basballguy Wrote: I just said it sounds biased with the approach....you've read the study i haven't so I don't know.  :)  

I think you may have misunderstood the premise. The idea is that they measured per capita dollars into the government (i.e. tax revenue) and then looked at per capita expenditures for public services and this was all at the country level. So how much a country brings in versus how much it spends on its people.

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2022, 08:11 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing some of those as well. 


LOL as though you don't have enough to do already 

You don't know the half of it. My volunteer role in Scouting is consuming so much of my free time. I haven't even been fishing yet this year!

I pop on here when I need to give my eyes a rest from spreadsheets.

[Dill]

(05-05-2022, 02:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Buddy, I have looked at these issues more than probably anyone on these boards. I understand the tradeoffs. I have seen the analyses run. For instance, I know that for a single-payer healthcare system we would need to see a tax increase. However, when you take into account that you would no longer be paying the premiums to private insurance companies the majority of Americans would actually see a reduction in their out-of-pocket costs on a yearly basis. Some countries do have year long school, but their school days may be shorter or they may have programs that start at different points in the year.

I literally study policy. I've looked at these things a number of times. They are by no means my specialty so I can't speak on them like some others but I have read the works of the experts and seen the data while in classes on education policy and healthcare policy. I read white papers for fun. We are constantly coming up with ways to improve our systems in this country and there are many feasible ways to do it.

A quick aside here--

The German health care system is NOT a single payer system like GB. (I'm sure you remember I have spoken of this before.)
Doubtful it would require nearly the tax increase a single-payers system would, while likely covering equally well.

Like ours, it is based on private insurance--and they still pay out half what we do per capita for very good health care.

Insurers there cannot deny customers because of pre-existing conditions, and everyone making less than a certain amount (used to be 50,000 Euros) HAS to have some kind of insurance.

For the po' fokes, there are non-profit cooperatives.  

Customers generally never see a bill. Health care providers just send the bill on to the company, rather than you having to send a bill to the company hoping they will "ok" it. That alone must save millions.

We had something along the lines of German coops back when Nixon created HMOs, but that went south by the late '70s, as these were allowed to become for-profit, sending costs skyrocketing and incentivizing schemes to deny coverage and payment. 

Just sayin', there are options other than single payer, and ones that cannot be challenged by "that guy" on every board who knows someone from Canada who comes here for health care cuz it's so bad there and is thankful we pay double what other countries do to get selective coverage because it means we pay less in taxes.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-05-2022, 07:39 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I did read that.

So how do any of those justify abortion?

#1 Pick a better partner if you're going to do things that involve a risk like getting pregnant. 

#2 Be more careful if you're going to do things you think your parents will react in an unfavorable way when they hear it.

#3 Join the club. That's life. Make better choices.

The Moral Right, ladies and gentlemen.

I guess it really is easier to fight for those without an opinion isn't it?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-05-2022, 08:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think you may have misunderstood the premise. The idea is that they measured per capita dollars into the government (i.e. tax revenue) and then looked at per capita expenditures for public services and this was all at the country level. So how much a country brings in versus how much it spends on its people.

So ours will be skewed cause of how much we also spend on military?

PS I haven't been fishing this year yet either, freaking making Snow Bunnies the day after Easter.. And I already said earlier, i hate snow

(05-05-2022, 08:44 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The Moral Right, ladies and gentlemen.

I guess it really is easier to fight for those without an opinion isn't it?

so one represents all??
Kinda narrow minded don't ya think?
Sooo what did you think of my compromise on abortion?

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2022, 09:15 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So ours will be skewed cause of how much we also spend on military?

PS I haven't been fishing this year yet either, freaking making Snow Bunnies the day after Easter.. And I already said earlier, i hate snow

That's not skewing the data. How governments spend their money was the focus of the study.

And yeah, I don't hate snow but the late season stuff was unnecessary.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-05-2022, 08:37 PM)Dill Wrote: A quick aside here--

The German health care system is NOT a single payer system like GB. (I'm sure you remember I have spoken of this before.)
Doubtful it would require nearly the tax increase a single-payers system would, while likely covering equally well.

Like ours, it is based on private insurance--and they still pay out half what we do per capita for very good health care.

Insurers there cannot deny customers because of pre-existing conditions, and everyone making less than a certain amount (used to be 50,000 Euros) HAS to have some kind of insurance.

For the po' fokes, there are non-profit cooperatives.  

Customers generally never see a bill. Health care providers just send the bill on to the company, rather than you having to send a bill to the company hoping they will "ok" it. That alone must save millions.

We had something along the lines of German coops back when Nixon created HMOs, but that went south by the late '70s, as these were allowed to become for-profit, sending costs skyrocketing and incentivizing schemes to deny coverage and payment. 

Just sayin', there are options other than single payer, and ones that cannot be challenged by "that guy" on every board who knows someone from Canada who comes here for health care cuz it's so bad there and is thankful we pay double what other countries do to get selective coverage because it means we pay less in taxes.

What is their main rules and regulation of the private companies?

also why would it be a big increase in taxes, all we'd really be doing is shifting what we pay now in premiums to "healthcare tax".

And that per capita, what is all included on it? got a link?
I've never studied Germany's Healthcare system, so that'd be some new reading.

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2022, 09:22 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: What is their main rules and regulation of the private companies?

also why would it be a big increase in taxes, all we'd really be doing is shifting what we pay now in premiums to "healthcare tax".

And that per capita, what is all included on it? got a link?
I've never studied Germany's Healthcare system, so that'd be some new reading.

Germany has an interesting system all around. They just love insurance in general. If they could have insurance insurance, they would.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-05-2022, 09:15 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: so one represents all??
Kinda narrow minded don't ya think?
Sooo what did you think of my compromise on abortion?

Not gonna lie - I skip pretty much every one of your posts. Not out of any sort of pettiness or anything, but because my phone breaks them and makes them insanely hard to read. Weird sentence breaks and jumping lines - it's bloody awful. And I'm sure it's not fault of yours, but I have enough things giving me a headache (try raising a Shiba Inu puppy; it's a ***** nightmare).

As for one representing all - Brad ain't one; he's one of many who spew that same shit. If 99/100 people say something, you tend to start lumping them all together. It's a character flaw of mine and not one I'm going to work on anymore than they're going to work on their ability to listen to science or reason. 

As far as compromise on abortion goes - there isn't one. At this point in my life, I listen to the opinions of my wife, daughter, sister, aunts, and female cousins on subjects about their bodies and well being and they've got no time for the compromises put forth by people who will never and can never bear a child. If that response doesn't please you, meh.

[basballguy]

(05-05-2022, 08:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think you may have misunderstood the premise. The idea is that they measured per capita dollars into the government (i.e. tax revenue) and then looked at per capita expenditures for public services and this was all at the country level. So how much a country brings in versus how much it spends on its people.

Does ignore taxes paid to each state?

[Dill]

(05-05-2022, 09:22 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: What is their main rules and regulation of the private companies?

also why would it be a big increase in taxes, all we'd really be doing is shifting what we pay now in premiums to "healthcare tax".

And that per capita, what is all included on it? got a link?
I've never studied Germany's Healthcare system, so that'd be some new reading.

Why would what, exactly, be a big increase in taxes? 

Here is a very recent link on per capita spending from Statista. 
https://www.statista.com/statistics/236541/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/
Finder also has these stats, plus more, e.g. a graph aligning health care expenditures with GDP.
https://www.finder.com/healthcare-costs-by-country

My figures were a bit dated. Now the U.S. pays almost 11,000 per capita while Germany is 6, 518--so a bit more than half now.

I mentioned what I think are the most important rules--people cannot be rejected for prior conditions. And I should add that 
they don't make you pick and choose coverage, like coverage for appendicitis but not gall bladder.  Also the payout limits are 
extraordinarily high. 30 years ago, co ops only capped them at 1.5 million. I can't say much more about the private companies
there, as I never used one. I know people with the private, as opposed to co op insurance, get more perks, like private rooms
in hospitals. Their system is changing though, and my friends there complain it is becoming "Americanized"--their term for neo
liberal innovations. E.g., when I lived there, kids got medicine for free. Now they must pay for it as do adults. If that continues for 20
years, costs could rise to U.S. levels as quality drops. 

Before one gets into the amount of tax paid vs the amount paid in private premiums, one needs to remember that 
the SAME COVERAGE and virtually the same quality and access of care COSTs LESS in Germany because so much of the nickel
and diming that goes with selective coverage and the enormous amounts of paperwork we have here are mostly absent
there. In co ops the for-profit motive is gone (or was last time I checked), so their boards are not beholden to stockholders who need
to see quarterly profits, which can be had by excluding the already sick and routinely challenging claims.  So German insurance is much more bang for the buck. 

Also, there are a lot of things about U.S. healthcare I don't understand or know about. E.g, hospitals and drug companies, not just insurance companies, extract profits from us, looks like through absence of competition before the consumer but high competition with each other.  (I know from past discussions there are people in this forums who can speak to this with much greater competence than I, as they have worked in these industries.) I believe that to some degree, hospitals can't turn away emergency room patients, even if they don't have insurance, and so must spread the costs among paying customers. That's why people complain when charged $100 for aspirin after a hospital stay.

I've heard great things about other 1st world countries as well. A Japanese friend, who was studying nursing here and working in U.S. hospitals went back to Japan to have her baby, because her experience here convinced her Japanese health care was better and more efficient. 

She likes America MUCH better than sexist Japan--just didn't want to take chances with her baby. I also recall that $1,000 cat scan here was only $125 there, about 15 years ago.  Bet Arturo will be happy to bring France into comparison.

[Arturo Bandini]

I can't tell. I went to the hospital in april, I had Xrays, MRI, blood tests and I didn't pay anything. Not one cent. But It's like that since I'm born.

[jmccracky]

(05-06-2022, 05:45 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I can't tell. I went to the hospital in april, I had Xrays, MRI, blood tests and I didn't pay anything. Not one cent. But It's like that since I'm born.

I worked for Cintas from 2013 until 2020. There was a guy from New Zealand who flew back to his home country, to have carpal tunnel surgery.  It was cheaper for him to do all that, than it was to use our supposed "awesome insurance". Lol. 

It's ridiculous that we can't have a much better health system in the richest country in the world. 

[Arturo Bandini]

(05-06-2022, 08:34 AM)jmccracky Wrote: I worked for Cintas from 2013 until 2020. There was a guy from New Zealand who flew back to his home country, to have carpal tunnel surgery.  It was cheaper for him to do all that, than it was to use our supposed "awesome insurance". Lol. 

It's ridiculous that we can't have a much better health system in the richest country in the world. 

Every french people who lives outside do that too.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-05-2022, 09:51 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Not gonna lie - I skip pretty much every one of your posts. Not out of any sort of pettiness or anything, but because my phone breaks them and makes them insanely hard to read. Weird sentence breaks and jumping lines - it's bloody awful. And I'm sure it's not fault of yours, but I have enough things giving me a headache (try raising a Shiba Inu puppy; it's a ***** nightmare).

As for one representing all - Brad ain't one; he's one of many who spew that same shit. If 99/100 people say something, you tend to start lumping them all together. It's a character flaw of mine and not one I'm going to work on anymore than they're going to work on their ability to listen to science or reason. 

As far as compromise on abortion goes - there isn't one. At this point in my life, I listen to the opinions of my wife, daughter, sister, aunts, and female cousins on subjects about their bodies and well being and they've got no time for the compromises put forth by people who will never and can never bear a child. If that response doesn't please you, meh.

No idea why it does that on me when posting from laptop. Posting from my phone works just fine... 

[KillerGoose]

(05-06-2022, 08:34 AM)jmccracky Wrote: I worked for Cintas from 2013 until 2020. There was a guy from New Zealand who flew back to his home country, to have carpal tunnel surgery.  It was cheaper for him to do all that, than it was to use our supposed "awesome insurance". Lol. 

It's ridiculous that we can't have a much better health system in the richest country in the world. 

Healthcare in the U.S. is going to become a hotter topic with every election cycle, I think. I broke my finger a few years back and it required surgery to repair. The total cost of the surgery was $34,000. I had insurance, so I only had to pay $3k-4k, but still. For people that don't have insurance, that could cripple them. A guy I know tore his ACL in a touch football game. He had no insurance, so he never got it repaired and he works a factory job. It's nuts. An ex-girlfriend of mine had brain surgery before we had met. She told me her family was millions of dollars in medical debt. After we broke up, she had to have brain surgery again, and then she got ***** cancer. She is doing just fine now, but I can't even imagine how much medical debt they are in. 

I always like to add anecdotes to my posts when possible. My wife works in healthcare. We have been together for several years now and I remember us having a discussion about healthcare when she was in college. She's a conservative, I'm not. Her stance at the time was essentially "yeah, healthcare is expensive but the care is also top quality. You pay for what you get. I don't think we should have socialized healthcare." Now, she has been in the field for a few years now and gone through COVID and experienced some very tough things. 

On this particular topic, she has completely flipped her stance. We speak about it frequently, but she said that she has seen patients come to tears when learning how expensive a treatment is, or hearing stories from people who haven't been to the doctor for years because they can't afford it which has led to their condition becoming substantially worse. It's all sad. I would really like to see some progress on this in particular.

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2022, 10:15 PM)basballguy Wrote: Does ignore taxes paid to each state?

No.

[basballguy]

(05-06-2022, 10:47 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: No.

Well if you ever come across it again, would love to read it

[Dill]

(05-06-2022, 10:10 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I always like to add anecdotes to my posts when possible. My wife works in healthcare. We have been together for several years now and I remember us having a discussion about healthcare when she was in college. She's a conservative, I'm not. Her stance at the time was essentially "yeah, healthcare is expensive but the care is also top quality. You pay for what you get. I don't think we should have socialized healthcare." Now, she has been in the field for a few years now and gone through COVID and experienced some very tough things. 

I have an anecdote relating to "quality" which I have shared here before.

In 1986, we were living in Germany with German healthcare. On a vacation to the U.S., my daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia.

We had the choice of keeping her in a U.S. hospital--where selling both grandparents homes likely would not have covered the costs--or taking her to Germany. That was a no brainer. We flew her back to Germany for two years of chemo and 5 years of follow up care, which included a month long family vacation in the Black Forest with other recovering families. 

When returned to the U.S.,* we could not get our daughter on any insurance program, and even so costs for the family were doubled for partial care. We took her for a check up in Children's Hospital in DC--and this is the part that speaks to quality--for the doctors there told us that Germans had the best care for children's leukemia of any advanced industrial nation including the U.S. That was back in '93. This had to do with the way the centralized data quickly and utililzed the feedback.

Still I remember someone attempting to shame me by risking my daughter's life in abandoning the "best health care system in the world."  

*That was in '93, the year that Hilary and Bill's proposed health care plan failed amidst fears of SOCIALISM.
Why mess with the best healthcare system in the world--for the world's wealthy!

[BigPapaKain]

(05-06-2022, 10:10 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Healthcare in the U.S. is going to become a hotter topic with every election cycle, I think. I broke my finger a few years back and it required surgery to repair. The total cost of the surgery was $34,000. I had insurance, so I only had to pay $3k-4k, but still. For people that don't have insurance, that could cripple them. A guy I know tore his ACL in a touch football game. He had no insurance, so he never got it repaired and he works a factory job. It's nuts. An ex-girlfriend of mine had brain surgery before we had met. She told me her family was millions of dollars in medical debt. After we broke up, she had to have brain surgery again, and then she got ***** cancer. She is doing just fine now, but I can't even imagine how much medical debt they are in. 

I always like to add anecdotes to my posts when possible. My wife works in healthcare. We have been together for several years now and I remember us having a discussion about healthcare when she was in college. She's a conservative, I'm not. Her stance at the time was essentially "yeah, healthcare is expensive but the care is also top quality. You pay for what you get. I don't think we should have socialized healthcare." Now, she has been in the field for a few years now and gone through COVID and experienced some very tough things. 

On this particular topic, she has completely flipped her stance. We speak about it frequently, but she said that she has seen patients come to tears when learning how expensive a treatment is, or hearing stories from people who haven't been to the doctor for years because they can't afford it which has led to their condition becoming substantially worse. It's all sad. I would really like to see some progress on this in particular.

Best in the world eh?

Must be why our infant mortality rate is so high.