Rubio: Life begins at conception

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 01:01 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Would a Buddhist believe the same as you?  Would a Buddhist impose their belief system upon you?

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/abortion.htm

Seriously???  Am I supposed to care about what a Buddhist thinks of my take on abortion, or anything else.

I'll give you a hint.....I don't.  My morals aren't so fragile that I seek the approval of others. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 12:32 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Of course I want to see the law changed.  I assumed that was obvious.

We weren't discussing what I wanted.  We were discussing the laws that are currently on the books, but keep moving the goal posts.

We aren't discussing what you want?  By disagreeing aren't you discussing what you want?  I thought you said we weren't discussing the legality, but instead the morality.  Now, you claim we are back to discussing the laws.  Which is it?

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 01:12 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What did the Supreme Court say about the fetus' rights?  They don't supersede the rights of the mother.  But, even though you are discussing rights this isn't a legal matter to you it is a moral matter.


But, you don't want to be subject to other's morals.  You prefer to be guided by your own conscience based upon your morals, values, and beliefs.

Did you ever consider others might want the same?  Especially in a moral dilemma?

For starters, you seem really hung up on the legal side of things.  I know what the rulings are, but I know that my opinions tell me that I don't care.  Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right IMO.  For example, I think the war on drugs is a joke.  I don't use, and never have.  So my opinion on this isn't based on selfishness or that I just want to be able to smoke without fear of consequences.  That said, I know that it's ILLEGAL.  I don't question that is illegal, I question WHY. 

It's the same for me with abortion. 

The difference between something like drug use and abortion, is that if someone chooses to use drugs, it's their body.  If they want to smoke, inject, or otherwise consume drugs, who am I to tell them not to?  It has no effect on anyone other than them. 

Abortion has a direct effect on another life.  It in facts ends another life.  That life has no choice. 

So a somewhat related question....

Since so many here believe that the baby is not really a life, and has no rights, and it's the woman's body....do you guys believe that it's perfectly okay for a pregnant woman to smoke, drink alcohol, and do drugs while pregnant? 

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 01:16 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: We aren't discussing what you want?  By disagreeing aren't you discussing what you want?  I thought you said we weren't discussing the legality, but instead the morality.  Now, you claim we are back to discussing the laws.  Which is it?

Please tell me you're putting on an act here.

Yes, I'd like to see the law changed.  Yes, I understand that abortion is currently legal. 

Again, my morals aren't based solely on what is legal or not.

You're the one that keeps bringing the laws into question as though that somehow supersedes my opinion on what I think it should be. 

I don't really see why this is so hard to grasp. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 12:39 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Because I don't speak or feel responsible for the morality of others.  People justify immorality all of the time.  Is robbing a bank any less of a crime if it was done because the guy had two starving kids at home?   

You failed to explain why your morals are superior.

Quote:I'm arguing against it because that abortion infringes on the right and liberty of that baby to live.  

What did the Supreme Court decide about the rights of the fetus?

Quote:We can play this game and semantics as long as you like.  


You have your take.  I have mine.  Trust me when I tell you that there isn't a post that you can make that's going to change my mind on the subject.  You can call me "close-minded" or state that I'm incapable of critical thinking.  I don't really care.  

I trust you when you tell me you won't change your mind.  Why would I call you close minded when you already told me you have an open mind and by definition an open mind will never change after careful consideration of information.  Is that the type of semantics you're talking about?

Quote:Abortion is a travesty.  A million a year, and you think that's a justifiable number?  

Where did I justify any number?

Quote:Pathetic. 

I didn't think you spoke for the morality of others.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 01:12 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Seriously???  Am I supposed to care about what a Buddhist thinks of my take on abortion, or anything else.

I'll give you a hint.....I don't.  My morals aren't so fragile that I seek the approval of others. 

Why should a Buddhist or anyone care about what you think?  Why should your morals apply to anyone, but you?

You claim this is a moral issue, but really it is about your morals.  But, more specifically, this is about you.  So, jake, if you don't care about what anyone else thinks why should anyone care about what you think?  What makes you think you're so special you get to decide what others can or can't do?  

Jake, my point has nothing to do with you seeking the approval of a Buddhist or anyone else for that matter.  Why should anyone seek your approval?  Like you wrote earlier, you have your take.  Well, your take applies to you.  Your take doesn't supersede the take of others when it applies to them.  

[jakefromstatefarm]

Quote:You failed to explain why your morals are superior.

In my world, my morals reign supreme. 

Quote:What did the Supreme Court decide about the rights of the fetus?

How many more times do we have to have this same discussion?  My morals aren't going to change based off of a SC ruling.  You can post this same thing 100 more times, and it won't change. 

Quote:I trust you when you tell me you won't change your mind.  Why would I call you close minded when you already told me you have an open mind and by definition an open mind will never change after careful consideration of information.  Is that the type of semantics you're talking about?

So I can't be open-minded unless I'm willing to reconsider my thoughts and opinions on abortion?  Is that the sort of tolerance that the left is always talking about? 

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 01:46 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Why should a Buddhist or anyone care about what you think?  Why should your morals apply to anyone, but you?

You claim this is a moral issue, but really it is about your morals.  But, more specifically, this is about you.  So, jake, if you don't care about what anyone else thinks why should anyone care about what you think?  What makes you think you're so special you get to decide what others can or can't do?  

Jake, my point has nothing to do with you seeking the approval of a Buddhist or anyone else for that matter.  Why should anyone seek your approval?  Like you wrote earlier, you have your take.  Well, your take applies to you.  Your take doesn't supersede the take of others when it applies to them.  

So just so we're clear....the morals and opinions of those who support abortions somehow trump mine, and I'm supposed to just STFU, because my morals and opinions don't mean anything to anyone but myself?

Yep, this certainly sounds like the very definition of liberal "tolerance" to me.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 01:27 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: For starters, you seem really hung up on the legal side of things.  I know what the rulings are, but I know that my opinions tell me that I don't care.  Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right IMO.  For example, I think the war on drugs is a joke.  I don't use, and never have.  So my opinion on this isn't based on selfishness or that I just want to be able to smoke without fear of consequences.  That said, I know that it's ILLEGAL.  I don't question that is illegal, I question WHY. 

It's the same for me with abortion. 

The difference between something like drug use and abortion, is that if someone chooses to use drugs, it's their body.  If they want to smoke, inject, or otherwise consume drugs, who am I to tell them not to?  It has no effect on anyone other than them. 

Abortion has a direct effect on another life.  It in facts ends another life.  That life has no choice. 

So a somewhat related question....

Since so many here believe that the baby is not really a life, and has no rights, and it's the woman's body....do you guys believe that it's perfectly okay for a pregnant woman to smoke, drink alcohol, and do drugs while pregnant? 

Well, for starters you keep bring up things like rights.  Do you realize the connection between rights and "the legal side of things"?  

According to you drug use only affects the user.  If it only affects the user, who are you to tell them not to?  If drug use affects the fetus, then wouldn't it affect more than the just user? So which is it?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 01:33 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Please tell me you're putting on an act here.

Yes, I'd like to see the law changed.  Yes, I understand that abortion is currently legal. 

Again, my morals aren't based solely on what is legal or not.

You're the one that keeps bringing the laws into question as though that somehow supersedes my opinion on what I think it should be. 

I don't really see why this is so hard to grasp. 

You're the one who keeps bringing up rights.  When you bring up rights, I bring up the law.  The Constitution deals with rights, correct?  The judicial branch of the government decides if the laws violate the Constitution, correct?  Do you understand how rights and the law work?

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 01:58 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: According to you drug use only affects the user.  If it only affects the user, who are you to tell them not to?  If drug use affects the fetus, then wouldn't it affect more than the just user? So which is it?

I'm consistent with my opinion on the matter.  I was asking about yours. 

I think I've clearly stated that I'm against a person doing harm to another life. 

Obviously if a woman is pregnant, her using drugs/alcohol would have an adverse effect on another life. 

I was asking for the pro-abortion crowd's take on the matter, since apparently the baby isn't really anything of note and not subject to any rights at all. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 01:49 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: In my world, my morals reign supreme. 



How many more times do we have to have this same discussion?  My morals aren't going to change based off of a SC ruling.  You can post this same thing 100 more times, and it won't change. 



So I can't be open-minded unless I'm willing to reconsider my thoughts and opinions on abortion?  Is that the sort of tolerance that the left is always talking about? 

Yes, in order to be open minded you have to be willing to reconsider your thoughts and opinions and modify them based upon new information.  That's kinda like the definition.  I has nothing to do with left or right.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 02:03 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You're the one who keeps bringing up rights.  When you bring up rights, I bring up the law.  The Constitution deals with rights, correct?  The judicial branch of the government decides if the laws violate the Constitution, correct?  Do you understand how rights and the law work?

Enough of the condescending crap. 

I understand perfectly well how law works, and I'll tell you for the last time that I don't give a rat's azz what court rules what legal or not, specifically in the case of abortion. 

My take on abortion isn't based on LAW. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 01:53 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: So just so we're clear....the morals and opinions of those who support abortions somehow trump mine, and I'm supposed to just STFU, because my morals and opinions don't mean anything to anyone but myself?

Yep, this certainly sounds like the very definition of liberal "tolerance" to me.  

How do your opinions trump their opinions?  Besides, of course, "In my world, my morals reign supreme."  This has nothing to do with liberal or conservative.  Why do your morals reign supreme?

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 02:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yes, in order to be open minded you have to be willing to reconsider your thoughts and opinions and modify them based upon new information.  That's kinda like the definition.  I has nothing to do with left or right.

No, you couldn't be more wrong.

Being open-minded doesn't mean that I have to be willing to reconsider my thoughts and opinions on specific things.

Am I being closed-minded if I say that I believe that child molestation is wrong?

I'm open-minded on a great deal of subjects.  Abortion is not one of them.  That doesn't make me less open-minded.  

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 02:10 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How do your opinions trump their opinions?  Besides, of course, "In my world, my morals reign supreme."  This has nothing to do with liberal or conservative.  Why do your morals reign supreme?

Do you seriously not believe that your opinion trumps mine here?

You've spent what, 3 pages arguing this with me, but don't believe that your opinion is superior to mine?

Want to know what the difference is, IMO?

My opinion has led to the death of 0 babies.  0.  That's why I believe my opinion and morals are superior.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 02:03 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I'm consistent with my opinion on the matter.  I was asking about yours. 

I think I've clearly stated that I'm against a person doing harm to another life. 

Obviously if a woman is pregnant, her using drugs/alcohol would have an adverse effect on another life. 

A woman is born with a finite number of eggs.  Any drug/alcohol use could potentially have a harmful effect upon the eggs.  Drugs/alcohol affect spermatogenesis and testosterone production as well. Drug and alcohol use doesn't just affect the user.  Just so you know.

Quote:I was asking for the pro-abortion crowd's take on the matter, since apparently the baby isn't really anything of note and not subject to any rights at all. 

See this is a strawman argument.  I don't recall a single poster making any of these claims except you.  I know I certainly didn't make those claims.  I'm not going to argue a statement which you have falsely accused me of making.  I believe most of the people who are pro-choice expressed an opinion that the decision isn't up to them, but to the people directly involved in the decision making process based upon their values, morals, and beliefs.  Not yours.  Not mine.  I don't think you will find anyone who believes it is okay for a pregnant woman to smoke weed while snorting an 8 ball while chugging a flaming Dr. Pepper as long as she intends to get an abortion.  Don't be ridiculous.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 02:10 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Enough of the condescending crap. 

I understand perfectly well how law works, and I'll tell you for the last time that I don't give a rat's azz what court rules what legal or not, specifically in the case of abortion. 

My take on abortion isn't based on LAW. 

Sure thing, Mr In my World, my Morals Reign Supreme.  No more condescending crap.  Check.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-12-2015, 02:13 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: No, you couldn't be more wrong.

Being open-minded doesn't mean that I have to be willing to reconsider my thoughts and opinions on specific things.

Am I being closed-minded if I say that I believe that child molestation is wrong?

I'm open-minded on a great deal of subjects.  Abortion is not one of them.  That doesn't make me less open-minded.  

You're not even open minded to the idea of being open minded.  

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 02:28 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Sure thing, Mr In my World, my Morals Reign Supreme.  No more condescending crap.  Check.

How much would my morals be worth if I were to change them often and/or replace them with the morals of others?

As I stated a couple of posts ago, my opinion and morals on abortion have led to the death of exactly ZERO babies.