Rubio: Life begins at conception

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 03:38 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Exactly.  Now explain that to yourself.

Good night.

LOL yeah, because sucking the brains out of a baby's head and killing it is equal to my next door neighbor smoking a J. 

Great take.  

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(08-12-2015, 03:46 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Haha well have a good night and sleep well.

Yea...time for bed. Holy shit it's 3am

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 03:35 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Because my morals reign supreme.  So you need to do what I say.  

Do you realize how ridiculous you seem when you read it coming from someone else?

This would be a great post if I cared whether you agreed with my opinion or not.

Keep trying though, eventually one of your "gotcha" posts will hit the mark.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-12-2015, 03:50 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Good question...we should look into that.  Is there a Link?

Interestingly enough, I know a little about this topic in a legitimate way, and not just talking out of my ass like usual.

Pro-life took their moniker because the more apt description for their movement, anti-abortion, is not as good. Using anti as a prefix for a name for a movement like that is bad marketing and propaganda.

On the other side, pro-choice is chosen because they are for the choice being available for an abortion. Using pro-abortion doesn't work and would drive away people because the majority of people that are pro-choice find abortion to be something they morally oppose on a personal level. The vast majority also draw a line somewhere. So calling them pro-abortion does not reflect the actual position of this side of the debate and is just propagandic.

Both sides chose their names because they reflect liberty and freedom in their wording and paint the other side as anti-life or anti-choice just by their mere opposition. The names are all marketing, nothing more. Especially when you consider the large variety of stances contained within both sides.

[djs7685]

(08-11-2015, 10:02 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I'll sum up my political beliefs as briefly as possible:

I don't care what other people do, at all, provided that it doesn't infringe on the rights and liberties of others in any way.

Therefore, I am:

Pro-legalization
Pro-porn
Pro-gun rights
Pro-prostitution

In other words, no, I am not anti-contraceptive.  My beliefs on abortion have ZERO to do with religion btw, if that's what you were getting at.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's go back a couple pages, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in quite some time.

How is being pro-choice infringing on the rights of others?

Don't make stupid comments like you don't care what other people do "at all", if you CLEARLY care what other people do.

I've never seen somebody openly go back and forth so much in my life. Throughout the last few pages, you say you don't care what other people do as long as it isn't infringing rights. Then you make multiple posts where you're very certainly caring what other people do though it isn't infringing shit. Then you say you're open minded, and then you make multiple posts with a preconceived opinion that you refuse to change (hint: that's not being open minded). You keep going on and on about how you're a "believer in freedom", yet you keep posting how you also don't believe it's right for people to be able to do certain things that they're currently free to do (hint: if we had it your way it would be taking away freedom, Mr. "Believer in Freedom").

I'm not going to keeping going back and forth, because this kind of person is absolutely impossible to have a legitimate argument with. You just keep going back and forth on everything to fit your preconceived opinions. You believe in freedom except when you don't. You believe in being open minded except when you don't. Making up your own rules as you go makes for a very frustrating conversation.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 03:31 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: You don't have to condone a specific act to believe that someone has a right to do it.

[djs7685]

(08-12-2015, 09:19 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Well, his quote only applies to when you're talking about the Westboro Church, prostitution, and drugs.

Get with it. Jeez.

It's actually hilarious that he went off for like 3 pages saying there's no different between being pro-abortion and pro-choice, yet he makes an exact quote showing that there is, in fact, a difference. Then refuses to acknowledge the hypocrisy and says that it doesn't count because it's killing babies which obviously is different than smoking weed.

WTF.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 09:25 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Well, his quote only applies to when you're talking about the Westboro Church, prostitution, and drugs.

Get with it. Jeez.

It's actually hilarious that he went off for like 3 pages saying there's no different between being pro-abortion and pro-choice, yet he makes an exact quote showing that there is, in fact, a difference. Then refuses to acknowledge the hypocrisy and says that it doesn't count because it's killing babies which obviously is different than smoking weed.

WTF.

I'm not here to change his or anyone's mind on abortion.  I posted the above to show what I said earlier about being pro-choice but against abortion.

I know people on the pro-life side are NOT going to change their views on abortion...but they have to learn to acknowledge that not everyone who is pro-choice is fighting them.

[BonnieBengal]

(08-12-2015, 09:06 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's go back a couple pages, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in quite some time.

How is being pro-choice infringing on the rights of others?

Don't make stupid comments like you don't care what other people do "at all", if you CLEARLY care what other people do.

I've never seen somebody openly go back and forth so much in my life. Throughout the last few pages, you say you don't care what other people do as long as it isn't infringing rights. Then you make multiple posts where you're very certainly caring what other people do though it isn't infringing shit. Then you say you're open minded, and then you make multiple posts with a preconceived opinion that you refuse to change (hint: that's not being open minded). You keep going on and on about how you're a "believer in freedom", yet you keep posting how you also don't believe it's right for people to be able to do certain things that they're currently free to do (hint: if we had it your way it would be taking away freedom, Mr. "Believer in Freedom").

I'm not going to keeping going back and forth, because this kind of person is absolutely impossible to have a legitimate argument with. You just keep going back and forth on everything to fit your preconceived opinions. You believe in freedom except when you don't. You believe in being open minded except when you don't. Making up your own rules as you go makes for a very frustrating conversation.

Easy answer:  He said he's for letting people do what they what as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights and liberties of others.  Abortion infringes on the right to life of the unborn baby.  Now we could go into the whole "is it a person or not," but Planned Parenthood clearly thinks the unborn baby is a person since they are selling its organs.  Then you will throw out the "heavily edited video" talking point.  To which I say, watch the UNEDITED video! Done.

[djs7685]

(08-12-2015, 09:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm not here to change his or anyone's mind on abortion.  I posted the above to show what I said earlier about being pro-choice but against abortion.

I know people on the pro-life side are NOT going to change their views on abortion...but they have to learn to acknowledge that not everyone who is pro-choice is fighting them.

Yeah, I'm actually anti-abortion myself, I just think this guy is being quite wacky throughout this thread and needs to stop being so hypocritical to create a solid debate.

(08-12-2015, 09:30 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Easy answer:  He said he's for letting people do what they what as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights and liberties of others.  Abortion infringes on the right to life of the unborn baby.  Now we could go into the whole "is it a person or not," but Planned Parenthood clearly thinks the unborn baby is a person since they are selling its organs.  Then you will throw out the "heavily edited video" talking point.  To which I say, watch the UNEDITED video! Done.

Honestly, I can say I haven't seen this tactic in a while.

The bold is absolutely ridiculous. You can't really act all "ha, done, I win!" whenever I DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THAT ARGUMENT. You just made something up that you had an immediate counter for when I never brought up any video remotely related to abortion in the life of this entire board. What the hell are you even talking about?

Wow, talk about looney. Get back to me when you'll stop making up arguments for me and you're willing to let me make my own points, then I'll try to have a real discussion with you.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 09:30 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Easy answer:  He said he's for letting people do what they what as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights and liberties of others.  Abortion infringes on the right to life of the unborn baby.  Now we could go into the whole "is it a person or not," but Planned Parenthood clearly thinks the unborn baby is a person since they are selling its organs.  Then you will throw out the "heavily edited video" talking point.  To which I say, watch the UNEDITED video! Done.

No, I'll use the "hopefully something good comes from the research" talking point instead because two wrongs (abortion and destruction of the tissue after) is no better than the one wrong of abortion and giving them to researchers for the cost of transportation and storage.

I won't bore you with the medical breakthroughs and success stories that have come from stem-cell research because you don't care about life after birth.  then it is all in god's hands.

Seriously.  The frothing at the mouth about "selling baby parts" would be laughable if I wasn't afraid another nut is going to start bombing clinics and shoot doctors in the name of being "pro-life".

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 09:06 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's go back a couple pages, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in quite some time.

How is being pro-choice infringing on the rights of others?

Don't make stupid comments like you don't care what other people do "at all", if you CLEARLY care what other people do.

I've never seen somebody openly go back and forth so much in my life. Throughout the last few pages, you say you don't care what other people do as long as it isn't infringing rights. Then you make multiple posts where you're very certainly caring what other people do though it isn't infringing shit. Then you say you're open minded, and then you make multiple posts with a preconceived opinion that you refuse to change (hint: that's not being open minded). You keep going on and on about how you're a "believer in freedom", yet you keep posting how you also don't believe it's right for people to be able to do certain things that they're currently free to do (hint: if we had it your way it would be taking away freedom, Mr. "Believer in Freedom").

I'm not going to keeping going back and forth, because this kind of person is absolutely impossible to have a legitimate argument with. You just keep going back and forth on everything to fit your preconceived opinions. You believe in freedom except when you don't. You believe in being open minded except when you don't. Making up your own rules as you go makes for a very frustrating conversation.

Maybe you missed the part where I said that freedoms should only be limited by their infringements on the rights of OTHERS.

I would say that abortion clearly does that.  

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 11:33 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Maybe you missed the part where I said that freedoms should only be limited by their infringements on the rights of OTHERS.

I would say that abortion clearly does that.  

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 11:33 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Maybe you missed the part where I said that freedoms should only be limited by their infringements on the rights of OTHERS.

I would say that abortion clearly does that.  

Exactly.  However the law says is a woman's right to choose and the fetus does not have those rights.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 11:37 AM)GMDino Wrote: Exactly.  However the law says is a woman's right to choose and the fetus does not have those rights.

Until recently, not all gays had the right to marry.  

Slavery was also legal at one point.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 11:48 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Until recently, not all gays had the right to marry.  

Slavery was also legal at one point.

Yep. And they went to court over the course of years to ensure the right.

And it changed.

And half the country separated to defend their right to own another human being.

And it changed.

And with abortion there has been attempt after attempt to modify or stop it...and it has not changed yet.

You are allowed to voice your opinion.  You are allowed to continue to fight the good fight.

And I encourage you to do so.

But lets not lose sight of the people who are truly affected: the women who are in a position where they have made the awful decision to end their pregnancy for whatever reason.  Calling them "baby murderers" isn't helping anyone.

[jakefromstatefarm]

So laws can change.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 12:02 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: So laws can change.

Of course they can.  Has anyone ever said otherwise?

I'm only talking about the rhetoric.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 11:54 AM)GMDino Wrote: Yep. And they went to court over the course of years to ensure the right.

And it changed.

And half the country separated to defend their right to own another human being.

And it changed.

And with abortion there has been attempt after attempt to modify or stop it...and it has not changed yet.

You do realize that gays have been around longer than the United States has, right? The country is over 200 years old and only for the last few decades has it been socially acceptable to be gay by the majority of the country and only NOW is it legally acceptable to marry someone of the same sex.

And heck, it took, what, over 100 years before slavery was banned? Abortion has only been legal for approximately 40 years. Give it time.

GMDino Wrote:But lets not lose sight of the people who are truly affected: the women who are in a position where they have made the awful decision to end their pregnancy for whatever reason.  Calling them "baby murderers" isn't helping anyone.

I feel for those who must chose abortion over risk of their own demise and for those who have had to experience something as heinous as rape. But for those who are inconvenienced, they ARE baby murderers. 

You're right, though. We need to not lose sight of the people who are truly affected: the unborn who aren't given a chance at life because the mother's convenience is more important than human life.

[fredtoast]

(08-12-2015, 11:37 AM)GMDino Wrote: Exactly.  However the law says is a woman's right to choose and the fetus does not have those rights.

This.  People who act like abortion laws interfere with the rights of a fetus refuse to acknowledge that outlawing abortion interferes with the rights of the mother.

So the whole discussion is not about "when does life begin".  The discussion is about "when does a fetus become an individual that deserves individual rights".  The court has rules that since a fetus can not survive as an individual outside of the mother until the third trimester then it is not entitled to individual rights that would interfere with those of the mother.

People can claim that a fertilized egg is a individual human all they want, but as long as it is impossible for that fetus to survive as an individual separate and apart from the mother it has no individual rights that would supersede those of the mother.

But it is an argument that has no end.  The people who claim that a fertilized egg is a human will never change their mind.  There is no possible argument to get them to think anything differently.  And they think it is impossible for anyone else to have different beliefs than them.