Rubio: Life begins at conception

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:31 PM)GMDino Wrote: Why?  Why would a fetus that doesn't even have brain wave activity have more rights than the woman?

Oh, I don't know, maybe the same reason blacks and "more right" to freedom than whites did to owning slaves?

I never realized that there was a right higher than the very fundamental right to life. 

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 12:44 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It's not murder. It's self defense. Yes, I AM being serious.


He or she threatened the life of the mother. 


Yes, if the mother's life is in danger or if the child is the product of rape.


So what? Adult murderers don't always kill on a whim. Some of them make the agonizing decision to take someone's life. Should we not call them murderers because they weren't complete psychopaths when they took someone's life?


I don't know if there are millions but they are out there. And if they want to murder an unborn child because it's inconvenient or what have you, then I will call them for what they are: a baby murderer. 

Just for the record, I've never called anyone that, nor would I with the one exception being if I knew someone was on their way to have an abortion and I thought that calling them that might spare the unborn child's life.

Let me also add that abortion is known to lead to depression and suicied in women and not because someone called them a baby murderer, well, a small part of it is because of that. But the bigger reason is because they carried a life in them and that life is no longer there. Think of it like post-partum depression only worse.

But who cares, right? As long as the mother has the right to kill her unborn child, who cares what happens to her afterwards?

Bottom line:  You are OK with baby murder...sometimes.  You have justified it in your mind.  

I care about the mother and the fetus.  I'm just willing to admit its not my choice and hope that the woman has been informed and is making the right decision.

I have also never called anyone a baby murderer and would NOT under any circumstances.  I would try to talk them out of their decision however.  Just without the vitriol that passes as "caring" of the fetus.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not babies.  They are still a part of the mothers body.  It is impossible for them to live separte and apart from the mothers body.

I don't care whether they are to live separate or apart from the mothers baby.

If my wife were 5 months pregnant, and someone punched her in the stomach, am I supposed to take solace in that?

[GMDino]

(08-12-2015, 12:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Oh, I don't know, maybe the same reason blacks and "more right" to freedom than whites did to owning slaves?

I never realized that there was a right higher than the very fundamental right to life. 

But you admit that if the mother's life is at risk you'd rather kill her baby.

Got it.

[Belsnickel]

(08-12-2015, 12:44 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Let me also add that abortion is known to lead to depression and suicied in women and not because someone called them a baby murderer, well, a small part of it is because of that. But the bigger reason is because they carried a life in them and that life is no longer there. Think of it like post-partum depression only worse.

This is a topic that I've actually been kind of interested in. I'd like to see someone do a study on the breakdown of this in regards to how common that was for a woman that made that decision independently or one that was pressured into it. Every woman I have known that has had an abortion and has suffered depression as a result, or any regret, has been a woman that was pressured into it by family/partner/other outside influence. The women that made the decision alone have not had the same experience. Since this is purely anecdotal it's just something I feel like should be researched in some way.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not an individual human therefore it is not a baby.  

In order to be a baby it can not still just be a part of the mothers body.

in order to be a baby it has to be possible for it to live separate and apart from the mother.

Since there is not separate life then there is not murder.

Yes it is, because I said so. That's why.

Your turn.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 12:44 PM)djs7685 Wrote: No, they argue whether it's a baby or not because they truly don't believe it's a baby.

Just like you have certain beliefs that may not be able to be 100% proven.

This is one of the arguments that will never have a true ending because there is no absolute, set definition for "when life begins", no matter how much anyone on either side wants to claim.

I always referred to what was inside of my pregnant wife to be a baby as well, but that's because it would sound awkward to call it a "sack of cells", even if it IS just a sack of cells at that point. The fact that it's commonly accepted to call it a baby, no matter what stage it's at, doesn't mean it's technically, factually a baby.

I don't know when life begins, but the difference between us is that I'm willing to admit that.

You obviously believe that you know where life begins, you're the one stating that it's perfectly acceptable to kill the baby.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-12-2015, 12:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Oh, I don't know, maybe the same reason blacks and "more right" to freedom than whites did to owning slaves?

I never realized that there was a right higher than the very fundamental right to life. 

The white slave owner's rights were not dependent upon the liberty of the slaves being violated. They could still have other avenues to pursue their rights. The liberty of a pregnant woman is dependent upon the rights of the unborn being violated, and the right to life of the unborn is dependent on the rights of the pregnant woman being violated. There is no way around it. Different scenarios.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not babies.  They are still a part of the mothers body.  It is impossible for them to live separte and apart from the mothers body.

They are NOT a part of the mother's body. Every cell of the unborn child is genetically distinct from the mother, heck there are many times the unborn baby's blood type differs from the mothers! The unborn child is not independently generated by the mother. It is possible for the unborn baby to die while the mother lives and vice versa. When an embryo is implanted in the lining of the mother's uterus, it emits a chemical which weakens the mother's immune system so as not to be rejected. 

Need I go on? Or will you accept that SCIENCE says the unborn child is NOT a part of the mother's body. Yes, it is dependent upon the mother for basic functions for a time, but even after born, a child is still dependent on someone else for slightly less basic functions like feeding and clothing and shelter.

[djs7685]

(08-12-2015, 12:52 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: You obviously believe that you know where life begins, you're the one stating that it's perfectly acceptable to kill the baby.  

Whoa, huh?

So are you just trolling now?

I'd love for you to provide any quote from me that advocates killing a baby.

You could always start with the part in this thread where I mentioned being anti-abortion.....

[fredtoast]

(08-12-2015, 12:50 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I don't care whether they are to live separate or apart from the mothers baby.

I don't care that you don't care.  That doesn't change any facts.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: Bottom line:  You are OK with baby murder...sometimes.  You have justified it in your mind.  

Except it's not murder. Just like if someone was killed in self- defense is not murder. It's not a justification.

GMDino Wrote:I care about the mother and the fetus.  I'm just willing to admit its not my choice and hope that the woman has been informed and is making the right decision.

You don't care about the fetus if you're okay with a woman choosing to kill it.

[fredtoast]

(08-12-2015, 12:58 PM)PhilHos Wrote: They are NOT a part of the mother's body. Every cell of the unborn child is genetically distinct from the mother, heck there are many times the unborn baby's blood type differs from the mothers! The unborn child is not independently generated by the mother. It is possible for the unborn baby to die while the mother lives and vice versa. When an embryo is implanted in the lining of the mother's uterus, it emits a chemical which weakens the mother's immune system so as not to be rejected. 

Need I go on? Or will you accept that SCIENCE says the unborn child is NOT a part of the mother's body. Yes, it is dependent upon the mother for basic functions for a time, but even after born, a child is still dependent on someone else for slightly less basic functions like feeding and clothing and shelter.

The unborn baby can not survive without the host mother until the third trimester.

That is a fact.  You can not change it.  Until that point the baby is not an individual that can survive outside of the mothers body.  If the mother becomes brain dead they can not remove the fetus from the mother.  Instead they have to keep the mothers body functioning with artificial life support.

It is not an individual human until it can survive without the mothers body.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:50 PM)GMDino Wrote: But you admit that if the mother's life is at risk you'd rather kill her baby.

Got it.

Actually, that's not what I'd rather at all. I'd like to think that the mother shouldn't HAVE to choose. I'm just understand if it's decided the child must die in order for the mother to live. 

[Belsnickel]

(08-12-2015, 01:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You don't care about the fetus if you're okay with a woman choosing to kill it.

Not believing the government has a place in that decision and being okay with it are two very different things.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is a topic that I've actually been kind of interested in. I'd like to see someone do a study on the breakdown of this in regards to how common that was for a woman that made that decision independently or one that was pressured into it. Every woman I have known that has had an abortion and has suffered depression as a result, or any regret, has been a woman that was pressured into it by family/partner/other outside influence. The women that made the decision alone have not had the same experience. Since this is purely anecdotal it's just something I feel like should be researched in some way.

I think you're right. Common sense would suggest that you're right. But it is something that should be studied (if it hasn't already).

[*PhilHos*]

(08-12-2015, 12:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The white slave owner's rights were not dependent upon the liberty of the slaves being violated. They could still have other avenues to pursue their rights. The liberty of a pregnant woman is dependent upon the rights of the unborn being violated, and the right to life of the unborn is dependent on the rights of the pregnant woman being violated. There is no way around it. Different scenarios.

While true, my point still stands.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 12:58 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Whoa, huh?

So are you just trolling now?

I'd love for you to provide any quote from me that advocates killing a baby.

You could always start with the part in this thread where I mentioned being anti-abortion.....

I assumed by your post that critiqued mine so much about legalization was an indication that you were pro-abortion.

Apologies if I read that wrong.  

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 12:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't care that you don't care. 

So we're at an agreement here.  Neither of us cares what the other thinks.  

[BonnieBengal]

(08-12-2015, 01:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The unborn baby can not survive without the host mother until the third trimester.

That is a fact.  You can not change it.  Until that point the baby is not an individual that can survive outside of the mothers body.  If the mother becomes brain dead they can not remove the fetus from the mother.  Instead they have to keep the mothers body functioning with artificial life support.

It is not an individual human until it can survive without the mothers body.

I haven't looked up any stats on babies surviving outside the womb, but if your numbers are right,  then what if science gets to the point that the baby can survive outside the mother's womb?  Does it suddenly become a baby in your eyes?