Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine

[*Nately120*]

(02-24-2022, 03:41 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: He just started a pointless war that could end in the utter destruction of his country and it's people. You really think he cares about his people? 

Give me a break. 

True, by the time we nuke them Putin will likely be safely hidden in a bunker at Mar a Lago.  But on a more serious and grave note, Putin is going to use his entire populace as human shields regardless of what is done to stop him.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-24-2022, 02:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think that if NATO/the US puts boots on the ground, we will see China act more openly. The question for me is whether they will come in to help Russia directly, or whether they will use the opportunity to invade Taiwan which would split the attention coming from NATO.

It's certainly more likely, which is why I advocated for targeting their air and naval assets.  Make doing anything outside their airspace and coastal waters a death sentence.  Actively target all Russian shipping.  Reduce them to an army with minimal air cover and zero naval assets.  They can't afford to replace those types of losses, even with Chinese help.

(02-24-2022, 03:41 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: He just started a pointless war that could end in the utter destruction of his country and it's people. You really think he cares about his people? 

Give me a break. 

Yeah, he absolutely does.  It's crazy to me how much people don't understand the Russian mindset.  They want to be respected, it's all they've ever wanted since being excluded form the boys club that was Europe.  In any event, your position is utterly untenable, based on your position Putin can do absolutely any damn thing he wants and just threaten nuclear war of you try and stop him.  Like I said earlier, why not just curl into a ball and hide under your blanket if that's your posture on Russia.

[HarleyDog]

(02-24-2022, 03:43 PM)Nately120 Wrote: True, by the time we nuke them Putin will likely be safely hidden in a bunker at Mar a Lago.  But on a more serious and grave note, Putin is going to use his entire populace as human shields regardless of what is done to stop him.

If it gets to that point, it won't matter.

[*Nately120*]

(02-24-2022, 03:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's certainly more likely, which is why I advocated for targeting their air and naval assets.  Make doing anything outside their airspace and coastal waters a death sentence.  Actively target all Russian shipping.  Reduce them to an army with minimal air cover and zero naval assets.  They can't afford to replace those types of losses, even with Chinese help.


Yeah, he absolutely does.  It's crazy to me how much people don't understand the Russian mindset.  They want to be respected, it's all they've ever wanted since being excluded form the boys club that was Europe.  In any event, your position is utterly untenable, based on your position Putin can do absolutely any damn thing he wants and just threaten nuclear war of you try and stop him.  Like I said earlier, why not just curl into a ball and hide under your blanket if that's your posture on Russia.

I know what you mean...just seems like this is yet another war where the population of Russia is going to have to pay the price for the hubris of their "elected" leaders.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-24-2022, 03:16 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Taiwan would be very complicated and messy, though. It's a separated island with a capable military and plenty of countries willing to defend it. I agree, like you said, if China invades Taiwan then we have WWIII on our hands. It's hard to figure out how many assets would be committed to Europe in the event that the U.S. reversed course and put boots on the ground, but they would likely hold reserves that could be moved to Taiwan in the event that China became involved. The Japanese would also commit to defending Taiwan. 

If anything, I can imagine the U.S. becoming involved with the Air Force well before any infantry are involved in Ukraine, even if NATO goes in. Bombing runs and air superiority, missile strikes. I genuinely don't think we get here, though, unless something drastically changes. From what I can gather, Ukraine is largely on its own for the near future. 

I think it's almost a dead certainty that China is eyeing the western response to this and making plans accordingly.  The thing about invading Taiwan, other than what you already mentioned, is that it will result in China being completely cut off from western markets.  They already have a hostile India on their border and all their bordering, or close in proximity neighbors absolutely loathe them, with the exception of N. Korea.  You cannot run a huge economy by only trading with Russia, Iran and North Korea.  They could try and keep their efforts in Africa up to speed, but an invasion of Taiwan means that steps would be taken to actively stop that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-24-2022, 03:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I know what you mean...just seems like this is yet another war where the population of Russia is going to have to pay the price for the hubris of their "elected" leaders.

Most assuredly, and, if reports are to be believed, the Russian people are not in favor of this war by a sizeable margin.  Clinton's biggest foreign policy blunder is really biting us, and the Russian people, in the ass now.

[GMDino]

Look at the size of anti-war protestors in St Petersburg, Russia. Wow pic.twitter.com/dHg9Uwt9RQ

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) February 24, 2022

 

[*Nately120*]

(02-24-2022, 03:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Most assuredly, and, if reports are to be believed, the Russian people are not in favor of this war by a sizeable margin.  Clinton's biggest foreign policy blunder is really biting us, and the Russian people, in the ass now.

Maybe if neo-cons know a Clinton had a hand in Putin's rise they'll sour on him.  Spread the word.

[CKwi88]

Pretty sure NATO/the West isn't interested in potentially starting WWIII/Apocalypse over Ukraine. Best they'll get are thoughts and prayers. Maybe covertly some guns and a double thumbs-up for encouragement.

[masonbengals fan]

(02-24-2022, 02:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, but did you see how big the font he used when he posted it?  Pretty compelling stuff.

Obama's defense secretary Robert Gates is the one who was quoted as saying it originally. Although I'm sure you know that already. 

 https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/05/13/gates_stands_by_statement_that_biden_has_been_wrong_on_nearly_every_major_foreign_policy_question.html#!

And if our current situation in this country doesn't confirm for you what a screw up he & his admin. truly is I'm not sure anything will.

[GMDino]

(02-24-2022, 03:42 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Nuclear is a clean energy. There is VERY little waste that comes along with it. 

Oh.

https://cen.acs.org/environment/pollution/nuclear-waste-pilesscientists-seek-best/98/i12

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-waste-lethal-trash-or-renewable-energy-source/#:~:text=All%20told%2C%20the%20nuclear%20reactors,nowhere%20else%20to%20put%20it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-24-2022, 03:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe if neo-cons know a Clinton had a hand in Putin's rise they'll sour on him.  Spread the word.

Ehh, you're interpreting my statement in the most negative way possible.  I've said this for years, and several times here, that Clinton really screwed up by not offering a hand of friendship to Russia when they were down on the mat.  The possibility to establish a long lasting friendship with an old enemy is a once in a generation, if that, opportunity, and Clinton, unfortunately, did not cease it.  He certainly didn't antagonize them, but nor did he attempt to make a friend/ally out of them, and it certainly would have been possible.  A squandered opportunity that likely will not come again without significant bloodshed.

[Bengalzona]

(02-24-2022, 03:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Well said, though I question two points.   I don't think the missle strikes were "wayward." First of all there were multiple hits on Kyiv. Likely they are, as you say, taking out com/control centers. 

I'm not sure most Ukrainians think Putin wouldn't invade. I think their president was minimizing the possibility. But they have already lost over 10,000 killed on both sides since 2014. That's almost double US losses in ME wars, and their pop is only 40 million.

This will be an interesting conflict for arms dealers, a contrast to the kind of insurgencies we have seen in the ME where one side is vastly underarmed with no chance to taking down jets. 

In this regard, I am most curious about the kinds of causalities the Ukrainians inflict without our AA and AT missiles.

Could be about the Kiev missiles.

I'm judging the comment on not expecting it by the mass and sudden exodus of civilians from Kiev. The highways are clogged. The average Joe (or "Ivan", if you will) might have anticipated more fighting in the East. Not the crossings from Belarus in the north. Nor the size and scope. After all, Putin claimed they did not intend to occupy the whole country. I'm not sure of the status of the Ukrainian military and their deployments, but I expect they are not in the best positions to block the pincer moves from the north and (apparently) the south.

We were supposedly sending them AA and AT missiles. I wonder what that status is. They are absolutely critical against the Russian army. The Ukrainian Air Force is small, as is their AA force. They have several thousand tanks, but mostly old Soviet models that won't stand up well against newer models.

The Ukrainians have a standing army of about 250,000 with about an equal amount of reservists. Their training, equipment and organization are mainly based upon the old soviet models, but they have been making efforts to Westernize. I wish them well.

[Bengalzona]

(02-24-2022, 03:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think it's almost a dead certainty that China is eyeing the western response to this and making plans accordingly.  The thing about invading Taiwan, other than what you already mentioned, is that it will result in China being completely cut off from western markets.  They already have a hostile India on their border and all their bordering, or close in proximity neighbors absolutely loathe them, with the exception of N. Korea.  You cannot run a huge economy by only trading with Russia, Iran and North Korea.  They could try and keep their efforts in Africa up to speed, but an invasion of Taiwan means that steps would be taken to actively stop that.

Yeah. While the Chinese could (and would) take advantage of an opportunity by "throwing something together" with their existing invasion plans of Taiwan, the analyses I have been reading seem to think they are about 10 to 20 years from where they want to be before they assault. And the modern Chinese are very deliberate. They like to focus on one thing at a time and drive at it with a 100% effort.

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-24-2022, 04:56 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Obama's defense secretary Robert Gates is the one who was quoted as saying it originally. Although I'm sure you know that already. 

 https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/05/13/gates_stands_by_statement_that_biden_has_been_wrong_on_nearly_every_major_foreign_policy_question.html#!

And if our current situation in this country doesn't confirm for you what a screw up he & his admin. truly is I'm not sure anything will.

Russia is invading Ukraine and escalating tensions across the globe to WW3 levels. GOP response has been to attack our president and/or praise Putin.

The GOPs preferred leader won an election with the aid of Russian disinformation, withheld military aid to blackmail Ukraine in an attempt to rig an election that he lost, and still lies about to this day, and just praised the guy pushing the world toward ww3 after he invaded. Other than golf and funnel tax payer money into his business his favorite thing to do in office was kissing the ass of scumbags like putin and lil Kim on the world stage every chance he got.

I really need to learn y’all’s stretching routine because this is probably the most agile mental gymnastics routine I’ve ever seen.

[*Nately120*]

(02-24-2022, 04:56 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Obama's defense secretary Robert Gates is the one who was quoted as saying it originally. Although I'm sure you know that already. 

 https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/05/13/gates_stands_by_statement_that_biden_has_been_wrong_on_nearly_every_major_foreign_policy_question.html#!

And if our current situation in this country doesn't confirm for you what a screw up he & his admin. truly is I'm not sure anything will.

I'm not sure what I've done to convince anyone that i think Biden was ever a good choice for president.  I think the notion that he is obscenely terrible is a bit overblown, though. 

A bit. Id hate to be seen as a white knight for the old perv. 

[*Nately120*]

(02-24-2022, 05:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ehh, you're interpreting my statement in the most negative way possible.  I've said this for years, and several times here, that Clinton really screwed up by not offering a hand of friendship to Russia when they were down on the mat.  The possibility to establish a long lasting friendship with an old enemy is a once in a generation, if that, opportunity, and Clinton, unfortunately, did not cease it.  He certainly didn't antagonize them, but nor did he attempt to make a friend/ally out of them, and it certainly would have been possible.  A squandered opportunity that likely will not come again without significant bloodshed.

More cynical than negative.  Putin doesn't seem keen on being reasoned with, but I'm more interested in how our own populace handles a conflict where the enemy has so much bad boy appeal and isn't brown enough to make people concerned. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-24-2022, 06:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: More cynical than negative.  Putin doesn't seem keen on being reasoned with, but I'm more interested in how our own populace handles a conflict where the enemy has so much bad boy appeal and isn't brown enough to make people concerned. 

That was way before Putin came into the picture, hence the missed opportunity.  More than anything Russia wants to be respected and treated as an equal.  Literally everything Putin does makes sense when viewed through that lens.  

[Au165]

(02-24-2022, 03:55 PM)GMDino Wrote:

Look at the size of anti-war protestors in St Petersburg, Russia. Wow pic.twitter.com/dHg9Uwt9RQ

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) February 24, 2022

 

This is actually an interesting angle to this, how does a war of aggression play out in modern times with social media. The people of Russia will be the ones harmed by sanctions but obviously the powerful there, and in most places here included, don't really worry too much about that. The question is extremism and how that plays. Ukraine is not all that separated from Russia to believe that Ukraine sympathizers/Putin haters wouldn't begin some sort of ops inside of Russian borders to create havoc. 

I honestly think there are two outcomes here, both with Russia overtaking Ukraine quickly. The first is a blitzkrieg style overtaking of the country and then installing their own puppet government so they can stay with the narrative of "operation" and removing "Nazisim" from their government. They then back out as part of "negotiations" and die on the hill of self defense and see if they can mitigate sanctions while still advancing their agenda. The other scarier option is that they simply use Ukraine as the jumping off point to quickly sweep up other former Soviet states. The one that looks most ripe for the taking is Moldova who actually has a similar separatist area like Ukraine that would allow Russia to use the same pretext to move in.

[BFritz21]

I love how people instantly, not even one page in, start blaming Trump instead of the vegetable that's in the White House now.

Ask yourself this, though, why did Russia wait until Trump was out of office to go after Ukraine? If Trump was so friendly with Putin, he would have wanted to invade while Trump was in office so he wouldn't have to fear any retaliation.