Sam Brownback cuts medicaid funding to Planned Parentood

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 08:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bfine, what if you decided to have a risky operation that could lead to your death.  Who should be allowed to make that decision for you instead of you?  Your death could affect your entire family.  Does that give them the authority to forbid you to have the surgery?

I guess the obvious point is I am the one running the risk of dying. With an abortion I'm killing something else. 

I don't see the relevance of your hypothetical here.

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2016, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The baby doesn't just belong to the mother; it belongs to whomever's blood flows through its veins.

Wrong.  

When they advance medical science to the point that someone else can take the fetus and let it grow in their body the mother is the only one entitled to make these decisions.

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2016, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: News Flash: Kids are not perfect and sometimes make decisions they later regret.

I just noticed that you have backed off your original claim and now are only talking about "kids".


This is a completely different issue.  Children need parental permission for other medical procedures so I can actually see an argument for minors to get parental permission fopr an abortion.

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 09:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  

When they advance medical science to the point that someone else can take the fetus and let it grow in their body the mother is the only one entitled to make these decisions.

Just because she owns the oven should not mean she has total control over the bread; unless she made the bread by herself.

I abhor abortion; however, even I know there are reasons for it. It there is someone else (especially blood related) that wants and is able to rear the child then there is absolutely no logical reason the mother should be able to abort the child. Of course this changes if the mother didn't voluntarily participate in the act or in medical issues. 

Should be the case when the reason for the abortion is The mom just don't want it; somebody does.
  

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 09:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I just noticed that you have backed off your original claim and now are only talking about "kids".


This is a completely different issue.  Children need parental permission for other medical procedures so I can actually see an argument for minors to get parental permission fopr an abortion.

No "backing off". There are kids that are over 18 years of age. An example would be someone at an abortion clinic trying to get rid of an unwanted child. At my age practically anyone young enough to give birth is a kid. 

Are you saying that a minor CAN have an abortion without parental consent?

[Vas Deferens]

(01-20-2016, 09:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Just because she owns the oven should not mean she has total control over the bread; unless she made the bread by herself.

I abhor abortion; however, even I know there are reasons for it. It there is someone else (especially blood related) that wants and is able to rear the child then there is absolutely no logical reason the mother should be able to abort the child. Of course this changes if the mother didn't voluntarily participate in the act or in medical issues. 

Should be the case when the reason for the abortion is The mom just don't want it; somebody does.
  

If you are talking about the male partner, its not really up to him at that point.  If he doesn't like that, shouldn't have done it in the first place.  

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 09:32 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: If you are talking about the male partner, its not really up to him at that point.  If he doesn't like that, shouldn't have done it in the first place.  

So you're saying if he doesn't agree with an act that kills his off-spring; he shouldn't participate in an act that can create his off-spring?

Not sure I'm following that?

Wouldn't it be more logical to say if the mother didn't want the child she shouldn't have participated in the act that can create one?

[Vas Deferens]

(01-20-2016, 09:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you're saying if he doesn't agree with an act that kills his off-spring; he shouldn't participate in an act that can create his off-spring?

Not sure I'm following that?

Wouldn't it be more logical to say if the mother didn't want the child she shouldn't have participated in the act that can create one?

Correct.  Takes two to tango.  Unfortunately for the male in this scenario, it isn't his body once he's tango'd to completion.  

It would be more logical for the man to fornicate with like-minded individuals if he staunchly opposes abortion.  Go ahead and have that conversation first if it means that much to you.

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 09:41 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Correct.  Takes two to tango.  Unfortunately for the male in this scenario, it isn't his body once he's tango'd to completion.  

It would be more logical for the man to fornicate with like-minded individuals if he staunchly opposes abortion.  Go ahead and have that conversation first if it means that much to you.

So you're saying the man should be able to keep the child if the woman changes her mind after they have this conversation?

I know lots of women that would lie just for the chance to sleep with me.

[Vas Deferens]

(01-20-2016, 09:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you're saying the man should be able to keep the child if the woman changes her mind after they have this conversation?

I know lots of women that would lie just for the chance to sleep with me.

1.  Nope.  He should not be able to keep it.  He should have slept with someone he knew was definitely going to have the baby.  If he's that concerned with it, should have put all his ducks in a row.

2.  Go for it.

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 09:50 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: 1.  Nope.  He should not be able to keep it.  He should have slept with someone he knew was definitely going to have the baby.  If he's that concerned with it, should have put all his ducks in a row.

2.  Go for it.

Then why even have the talk? I'm not sure wanting to keep your kid equates to "that concerned about it".

Like I said: Why should she have total control of the bread just because she owns the oven? He provided the ingredients.

[Belsnickel]

(01-20-2016, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Then why even have the talk? I'm not sure wanting to keep your kid equates to "that concerned about it".

Like I said: Why should she have total control of the bread just because she owns the oven? He provided the ingredients.

Objectifying a woman's body doesn't negate the fact that you are talking about telling someone what they must do with their own body. That's not a right anyone has over another. Until medical science advances to the point where the embryo can be removed and raised externally the only person that has the ultimate say is the woman that is pregnant.

[Vas Deferens]

(01-20-2016, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Then why even have the talk? I'm not sure wanting to keep your kid equates to "that concerned about it".

Like I said: Why should she have total control of the bread just because she owns the oven? He provided the ingredients.

1.  Talk.  Get to know them.  Set up a feeling of security so there is less to worry about with the child.  Lots of ways to figure this out and make a good decision, if you are absolutely certain you would want to have the child, no matter what.

2.  There are many models of ovens from a variety of different manufacturers.  If you want your bread to come out the way you like it, get the right oven.  You want white bread?  There's an oven for that.  You want something a little more wholesome?  Definitely an oven for that, albeit harder to come into.  Don't just go throwing your flour sludge into any yeasty oven if you're exceptionally picky about the results.  Surely your father gave you this consumer reports article.

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 10:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Objectifying a woman's body doesn't negate the fact that you are talking about telling someone what they must do with their own body. That's not a right anyone has over another. Until medical science advances to the point where the embryo can be removed and raised externally the only person that has the ultimate say is the woman that is pregnant.

Do we not believe in equal rights?

The father does not have a right to his off-spring simply because he doesn't have the tools to develop it' even though, its creation is because of him. Has he no rights?

Why don't we say until medical science comes up with a fool-proof way to prevent pregnancy; if you enter into the contract you are equally responsible for the results. 

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2016, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Like I said: Why should she have total control of the bread just because she owns the oven? He provided the ingredients.

Because if her body was an oven then he could just take it out and bake it in an other oven.


Guess your logic here might make sense in a middle school boys locker room, but it has no place in a debate among adults.  Thanks for showing how much respect you have for women.

[Vas Deferens]

(01-20-2016, 10:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do we not believe in equal rights?

The father does not have a right to his off-spring simply because he doesn't have the tools to develop it' even though, its creation is because of him. Has he no rights?

Why don't we say until medical science comes up with a fool-proof way to prevent pregnancy; if you enter into the contract you are equally responsible for the results. 

Men already have that full-proof way to prevent pregnancy.  See above.

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 10:03 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: 1.  Talk.  Get to know them.  Set up a feeling of security so there is less to worry about with the child.  Lots of ways to figure this out and make a good decision, if you are absolutely certain you would want to have the child, no matter what.

Who the hell said "if you are absolutely certain you would want to have the child, no matter what" ?

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2016, 10:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do we not believe in equal rights?

The father does not have a right to his off-spring simply because he doesn't have the tools to develop it' even though, its creation is because of him. Has he no rights?

I 100% believe in equal rights.

The man has control over his body and the woman has control over her body.  Everything is equal.

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 10:13 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Men already have that full-proof way to prevent pregnancy.  See above.

Women have the same way

[*bfine32*]

(01-20-2016, 10:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because if her body was an oven then he could just take it out and bake it in an other oven.


Guess your logic here might make sense in a middle school boys locker room, but it has no place in a debate among adults.  Thanks for showing how much respect you have for women.

Good thing we can have a rational discussion about the issue without finger-pointing. 


But hey, Lucie's not here, we should be able to "advance the discussion" right?