Saudi Prince Recognizes Israel’s Right To Exist

[Dill]

(04-07-2018, 12:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Dude you asked 5 questions without answering my one.

Let's try this: You answer my 1 and I will entertain your 5. 

Finally figured out your abbreviation, if you are refering to the Crown Prince in the OP.

MBS obtained his western education at King Saud University in Riyadh.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-06-2018, 11:36 PM)Dill Wrote: Jeezus. What a rationalization for Kushner's misuse of office.

Americans "enslave" foreign workers too. Are we all "scum"??

The base is a key to the US ability to project power in the Middle East--e.g., to bomb Isis in Syria or check Iran.

The bombing missions in Afghanistan fly from Qatar. 

Most of those enslaved workers come from "shithole" countries[/b ]. The [b]US presence in Qatar brings pressure to address human rights violations.
If I remember correctly, you wouldn't want those workers coming to the US. But if Qatar treats them badly they are scum???

When Americans who employ foreign workers are confiscating passports, confiscating phones, no days off, rape, beat, threaten legal ramifications if they do not do as their told. When this happens on a wide scale, we can have that discussion comparing Americans.

You just can’t get over defending these guys because they are Muslims and not white. They are true scum. None of virtue signaling is going to change any of that stuff.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/feb/26/qatar-foreign-workers-slave-conditions

Quote:Foreign maids, cleaners and other domestic workers are being subjected to slave-like labour conditions in Qatar, with many complaining they have been deprived of passports, wages, days off, holidays and freedom to move jobs, a Guardian investigation can reveal.

Hundreds of Filipino maids have fled to their embassy in recent months because conditions are so harsh. Many complain of physical and sexual abuse, harassment, long periods without pay and the confiscation of mobile phones.

Quote:The non-payment of wages, confiscation of documents and inability of workers to leave their employer constitute forced labour under UN rules. According to the International Labour Organisation, forced labour is "all work which is exacted from someone under the menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily".

Lack of consent can include induced indebtedness and deception about the type and terms of work, withholding or non-payment of wages and the retention of identity documents. Initial consent may be considered irrelevant when deception or fraud has been used to obtain it.

"Menace of penalty" can include physical violence, deprivation of food and shelter, non-payment of wages, the inability to repay a loan, exclusion from future employment and removal of rights and privileges.

Modern-day slavery is estimated to affect up to 21 million people across the globe.

When the Guardian visited in January, at least 35 runaway maids had sought sanctuary at the POLO in the capital, Doha, which provides support to 200,000 Filipinos in Qatar. The welfare officer said most complained of pay being withheld, insufficient food, overwork and maltreatment. Some said they had endured verbal and physical abuse by sponsors of different nationalities.

Eight Filipino workers interviewed by the Guardian said they had not been paid for six months, were sometimes deprived of food while cleaning for long hours and had had their passports confiscated.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2018, 12:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Dude you asked 5 questions without answering my one.

Let's try this: You answer my 1 and I will entertain your 5. 

Lets try this instead.

When some one wants to make a point they say what they want to say instead of playing the "ask a question" game.

[*bfine32*]

(04-09-2018, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lets try this instead.

When some one wants to make a point they say what they want to say instead of playing the "ask a question" game.

I agree; although, I must say I'm not quite sure why you quoted me instead of Dill.

[Dill]

(04-09-2018, 04:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree; although, I must say I'm not quite sure why you quoted me instead of Dill.

My five questions were actually an attempt to answer your one question. I wanted to understand what you were asking and so needed more information. I didn't understand your questions and you didn't understand the reason for my five.

I finally figured it out though and answered your question.

[Dill]

(04-07-2018, 03:39 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: When Americans who employ foreign workers are confiscating passports, confiscating phones, no days off, rape, beat, threaten legal ramifications if they do not do as their told.   When this happens on a wide scale, we can have that discussion comparing Americans.  

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/feb/26/qatar-foreign-workers-slave-conditions

I might have to wait until tomorrow to give a fuller answer to this.  Some of points anyway--

Your qualification--on a wide scale--shouldn't let the US off the hook. It sounds like you have not really checked the numbers.

Second point--the US has funded the "confiscating passports, confiscating phones, no days off, rape, beat, threaten legal ramifications if they do not do as their told" of thousands of laborers in the Middle East.

Third point--what is your view of our "ally" Saudi Arabia regarding slave labor. Are you applying to them the same standards you apply to Qatar? 

Let's not forget that we are evaluating Kushner's foreign policy efforts here.  Can your answers lead us back to that issue or was the sudden judgment of Qatar on human rights grounds a deflection? 

You would argue that US human rights policy should determine our relation to all countries or just selected ones?

[Dill]

(04-07-2018, 03:39 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You just can’t get over defending these guys because they are Muslims and not white.   They are true scum.  None of virtue signaling is going to change any of that stuff.

LOL where does this come from?  Are they "true scum" because they are "Muslims and not white"?

Or are all Qataris scum because some Qatari contractors employ slave labor? 

Complaining about human rights violations is not "virtue signalling" when you do it?

Just FYI--since the Enlightenment, at least, there has been an ethical standard founded upon the notion of universal human rights. I.e., people have those rights regardless of religion or culture or color.
Since then, that standard has been incorporated into the UN Declaration of Human Rights and international law.

Some of us defend "Them"--non-white Mulsims--or apply the above-mentioned standard of universal rights to Them when judging their actions, regardless of religion or color.

That means white non-Muslims sometimes defend non-white Muslims, or at least refuse double standards when judging them.

But if distinctions between religions and color are fundamental to your determinations of who is "scum" and who is not, then it could seem that a white non-Muslim applying human rights standards to non-white Muslims was doing the same thing you are, just reversing the polarity.

[*bfine32*]

(04-09-2018, 05:18 PM)Dill Wrote: My five questions were actually an attempt to answer your one question. I wanted to understand what you were asking and so needed more information.  I didn't understand your questions and you didn't understand the reason for my five.

I finally figured it out though and answered your question.

Seems like one question would have sufficed: "Who is MBS?" Although, I thought it was a given with the context of the thread.

However, my question was to inquire where Mohammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, also known as MBS, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia received his Western Education as I only knew of him receiving his Education in the ME (Middle East).

But Fred has set me straight about answering questions; though, he seems fine with yours. 

[StLucieBengal]

(04-09-2018, 05:30 PM)Dill Wrote: I might have to wait until tomorrow to give a fuller answer to this.  Some of points anyway--

Your qualification--on a wide scale--shouldn't let the US off the hook. It sounds like you have not really checked the numbers.

Second point--the US has funded the "confiscating passports, confiscating phones, no days off, rape, beat, threaten legal ramifications if they do not do as their told" of thousands of laborers in the Middle East.

Third point--what is your view of our "ally" Saudi Arabia regarding slave labor. Are you applying to them the same standards you apply to Qatar? 

Let's not forget that we are evaluating Kushner's foreign policy efforts here.  Can your answers lead us back to that issue or was the sudden judgment of Qatar on human rights grounds a deflection? 

You would argue that US human rights policy should determine our relation to all countries or just selected ones?

I do not support Saudi Arabia. If I had my way we would block the entire e Middle East with very few exceptions from ever entering our country. Jordan, Egypt, and Israel is all who I have even the smallest bit of patience for these days.

I do not support slavery of foreign workers who come here legally to work.

You brought up Qatar, I just responded.

As for Kushner, no one said he has major foreign policy chops, the Middle East peace process was his pet project going into the administration and we are seeing some movement in that area. I’m sure he wasn’t the only one working on it and there were others to share in the success. I mentioned his name because he is often slammed because he is Trumps son in law. He actually was part of some good stuff here. No need to belittle him or any achievements.

The reality is that probably Obama is to blame for this because he allowed Iran to become a strongman in the Middle East as a payoff to Valiero Jarrett’s family. His pro Iranian policies are uniting Jordan/Saudi Arabia/ Israel, UAE, and Egypt. His moronic actions may end up creating a pro western Middle East power base that can keep ge region in check.

We are seeing it in action with Syria now, we don’t have to lead there low and this coalition can lead with us supporting their efforts. It’s another foreign policy win for Trump.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-09-2018, 05:51 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL where does this come from?  Are they "true scum" because they are "Muslims and not white"?

Or are all Qataris scum because some Qatari contractors employ slave labor? 

Complaining about human rights violations is not "virtue signalling" when you do it?

Just FYI--since the Enlightenment, at least, there has been an ethical standard founded upon the notion of universal human rights. I.e., people have those rights regardless of religion or culture or color.
Since then, that standard has been incorporated into the UN Declaration of Human Rights and international law.

Some of us defend "Them"--non-white Mulsims--or apply the above-mentioned standard of universal rights to Them when judging their actions, regardless of religion or color.

That means white non-Muslims sometimes defend non-white Muslims, or at least refuse double standards when judging them.

But if distinctions between religions and color are fundamental to your determinations of who is "scum" and who is not, then it could seem that a white non-Muslim applying human rights standards to non-white Muslims was doing the same thing you are, just reversing the polarity.

Qatar is one of the works worst Human rights violators. A lot of this has to do with sharia law. It’s a scum bag nation. You can romanticize them all you like. We love to travel and see different countries it there is no way we would go Qatar for any reason. And before you launch into some anti Muslim thing we have gone to Turkey and Azerbaijan without any issues. Turkey was admittedly more dicey.

[GMDino]

(04-10-2018, 02:18 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Qatar is one of the works worst Human rights violators.   A lot of this has to do with sharia law.   It’s a scum bag nation.   You can romanticize them all you like.   We love to travel and see different countries  it there is no way we would go Qatar for any reason.   And before you launch into some anti Muslim thing we have gone to Turkey and Azerbaijan without any issues.   Turkey was admittedly more dicey.

Azerbaijan 

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/azerbaijan

Quote:The government continued its thorough crackdown on dissenting voices in 2016, leaving a wide gap in Azerbaijan’s once vibrant independent civil society. Authorities released 17 human rights defenders, journalists, and political activists imprisoned on politically motivated charges. But at least 25 government critics remained wrongfully imprisoned, including political activists and bloggers arrested in 2016. Restrictive laws continue to prevent nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) from operating independently.


Reports of torture and other ill-treatment persisted throughout the year.

The September 2016 constitutional referendum abolished minimum age requirements for presidential and parliamentary candidates, extended from five to seven years the presidential term of office, and expanded the power of the presidency.

The Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative (EITI) declined to restore Azerbaijan’s full membership in the organization and gave the government four months to reform its laws limiting space for civil society or face suspension.

Prosecuting Government Critics
In March, President Ilham Aliyev pardoned 13 journalists, human rights defenders, activists, and bloggers who had been prosecuted on politically motivated charges in previous years. Their convictions have not been quashed, and some former detainees continued to face travel and work restrictions and risk detention if they resume their work. Some led NGOs, and these groups remained closed.

Also in March, courts converted the prison sentences of journalist Rauf Mirgadirov and human rights lawyer Intigam Aliyev to suspended terms and released both. In May, the Supreme Court similarly converted investigative journalist Khadija Ismayilova’s prison term and released her. All three retain a criminal record and two faced foreign travel restrictions.
Ilgar Mammadov, leader of the pro-democracy opposition movement Republican Alternative (REAL), remained in prison despite the 2014 European Court of Human Rights decision on his case and repeated demands by the Council of Europe to release him. Others who remain behind bars include youth activist Ilkin Rustamzadeh, opposition Azerbaijan Popular Front Party (APFP) activist Murad Adilov, journalist Seymur Hazi, and blogger Abdul Adilov. 

New Arrests and Convictions
In August, in the lead-up to the constitutional referendum, the government arrested eight activists on a range of false, politically motivated charges, including drug possession, hooliganism, incitement, and illegal business activity. The authorities also accused some activists of possessing banned or potentially illegally imported materials related to Fethullah Gülen, the US-based imam who Turkey accuses of organizing the failed July 2016 coup attempt there.

Among those arrested were Fuad Ahmadli, a well-known social media activist and senior APFP member and Faig Amirov, financial director for the leading opposition newspaper Azadlig. During searches following their arrests, police claimed to have found prohibited religious books and compact discs related to Gülen, but also pressed other criminal charges against them. Both were in custody at time of writing.

Police also arrested three REAL members: Natig Jafarli, the party’s executive secretary, who had publicly criticized the constitutional referendum, and two other REAL activists campaigning against the referendum. A court jailed the latter two for a week for refusing to abide by a police order not to distribute campaign leaflets. In September, Jafarli was released pending trial.

Authorities continued to target leading and rank-and-file APFP activists, at least 12 of whom were either on trial or serving prison terms in 2016. Among those facing trial is Fuad Gahramanli, deputy APFP chairman, arrested in December 2015 on trumped-up charges of calling for the government’s overthrow. The charges are part of the criminal conspiracy and terrorism case against religious activists in Nardaran, a Baku suburb known for its Shi’ia conservatism. Gahramanli was in pretrial custody at time of writing. In March, a court convicted Mammad Ibrahim, advisor to APFP chairman Ali Kerimli, on spurious hooliganism charges and sentenced him to three years in prison. Elvin Abdullayev, a youth activist and APFP member remained in prison since his January 2015 arrest on dubious drug possession charges. In June 2016, the Supreme Court reduced his prison sentence from six to two-and-half years.

Freedom of Media
Independent outlets faced harassment and closure, and critical journalists faced threats and intimidation aimed at silencing them.

In April, authorities launched a criminal investigation into alleged tax evasion and related economic infractions supposedly involving 15 journalists who cooperate with Meydan TV, a Berlin-based online independent Azeri-language media outlet that provides critical reporting on human rights, corruption, and similar issues. They were at liberty pending the investigation; at least seven of them face travel bans while under investigation. In December 2015 and April 2016, courts convicted three family members of Meydan TV’s exiled journalists on trumped-up drug charges and paroled them in April 2016 after they had served less than a year.

In September, the state-run printing house refused to publish Azadlig due to the newspaper’s failure to make a debt payment to the company following the detention of Faig Amirli. As a result, Azadlig had to indefinitely suspend its print edition.

In July, authorities first suspended and then revoked the broadcasting license of a privately owned, staunchly pro-government ANS television, following its announcement to broadcast an interview with Fethullah Gülen. The TV channels remained closed at time of writing.

Freedom of Association
Highly restrictive and punitive regulations on NGOs adopted in 2014 and 2015 make it almost impossible for independent groups to fund and carry out their work. In February 2016, new regulations went into force giving the Justice Ministry broad powers to conduct intrusive inspections of NGOs on a wide range of grounds.

In April, the Prosecutor’s Office suspended the sweeping criminal investigation opened in 2014 against dozens of foreign donors and their grantees. Several organizations and their leaders that are members of Azerbaijan’s coalition for the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative (EITI) saw restrictions linked to the investigation lifted. The authorities unfroze their bank accounts, lifted travel bans against them, and stopped intrusive screenings at the Azerbaijani borders.

Despite the unfrozen bank accounts, several groups in the EITI coalition cannot access funding because authorities refuse to register their grant agreements. Azerbaijani regulations require NGOs to provide banks with proof of grant registration in order to access grant funds.

The bank accounts of at least a dozen NGOs that worked on human rights and government accountability remain blocked; the groups suspended their work or operate in exile.

Torture and Ill-Treatment
Torture and other ill-treatment continued with impunity. In August, police arrested Elgiz Gahraman, member of an opposition youth movement, and held him incommunicado for six days. Gahraman told his lawyer police beat and threatened him with sexual humiliation to force him to confess to false drug possession charges. Authorities failed to effectively investigate. Gahraman remained in custody at time of writing.

In May, police arrested youth activists Giyas Ibrahimov and Bayram Mammadov for spraying graffiti on a monument to former President Heydar Aliyev and demanded that they apologize on camera. When they refused, policemen beat and threatened to rape them with truncheons to force them to confess to drug possession. Authorities failed to conduct an effective investigation into the ill-treatment allegations. In October, Ibrahimov was sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment; Mammadov’s trial was ongoing at time of writing.

In July, 18 of the 68 defendants in a high-profile trial counterterrorism case told a court that police had beaten them repeatedly to elicit confessions and testimony. The case concerns state allegations that Taleh Bagirzade, a religious activist who had previously been jailed on politically motivated charges, conspired with others to overthrow the government.
A November 2015 police raid to arrest Bagirzade in Nardaran, a Baku suburb, turned violent during unclear and disputed circumstances, with shootings leaving two police and seven civilians dead. Bagirzade stated at trial that state agents beat him to induce testimony against two political opposition leaders. Authorities denied the allegations and did not thoroughly investigate.

Key International Actors
The United States, European Union, and Azerbaijan’s other bilateral and international partners welcomed the release of government critics but failed to effectively leverage the potential of their relationships with the government to press for meaningful rights improvements.

In October, EITI, a prominent international coalition that promotes good governance in oil, gas, and other extractive industries, declined to restore Azerbaijan’s full membership status in the organization, and gave the government four months to reform its restrictive NGO laws or face suspension.

Following its May 2016 visit, the United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention noted receiving “a large number of testimonies […] about torture and ill treatment” in custody. It also observed “dire conditions of living and high level of negligence in the institution for women,” and expressed dismay “about the application of chemical restraints accompanied in the case of children with ‘light’ electroshocks” in one institution.

Following his September visit, the UN Special Rapporteur on human rights defenders, Michel Forst, urged the government to stop criminalization of human rights defenders for peaceful and legitimate activities, release all detained defenders, and rescind criminal and administrative sanctions against them and their families.

In its October concluding observations, the UN Human Rights Committee urged Azerbaijani authorities to end “the crackdown on public associations … ensuring that they can operate freely and without fear of retribution for their legitimate activities.”

In late 2015, Council of Europe Secretary General Thorbjørn Jagland launched an inquiry into Azerbaijan’s failure to carry out the European Court of Human Rights’ rulings. Jagland’s special representative could not visit Azerbaijan throughout 2016, apparently due to the lack of government cooperation to facilitate the initiative.

In December 2015, bipartisan legislation was introduced in the US House of Representatives, calling on the Azerbaijani government to free all “political prisoners.” The bill called for, among other things, visa bans on unnamed senior Azerbaijani officials responsible for the crackdown.

During her March visit to Baku, European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Federica Mogherini announced the EU’s intention to speed up negotiations on a new partnership agreement with Azerbaijan, making little public mention of Baku’s atrocious human rights record.

International financial institutions have continued or increased funding to the Azerbaijani government, including in the extractives industries, despite the worsening human rights situation.

Qatar

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/qatar

Quote:Low-paid migrant workers continued to face abuse and exploitation, and reforms that took effect in 2016 leave the exploitative elements of the old kafala (sponsorship) system in place and do not cover domestic workers. Qatar-based journalists criticized the manner in which the authorities applied the provisions of a 2014 cybercrime law.

Migrant Workers

Less than 10 percent of Qatar’s population of 2.1 million are Qatari nationals. The country has been increasingly dependent on migrant labor as Qatar continued to build stadiums and develop infrastructure in preparation for hosting the 2022 FIFA World Cup.

Low-paid migrant workers, mostly from Asia and to a lesser extent Africa, continued to face abuse and exploitation. Workers typically pay exorbitant recruitment fees. Employers regularly take control of workers’ passports when they arrive in Qatar. Many migrant workers complain that employers failed to pay their wages on time, and sometimes not at all.

In December 2016, changes to Qatar’s kafala system came into force. Law No. 21 of 2015, on the regulation of the entry and exit of expatriates and their residency, referred to “recruiters” instead of “sponsors” but left the fundamentally exploitative characteristics of the kafalasystem in place, whereby a migrant worker’s legal residence in the country continues to be tied to their employer or sponsor.

The new law still requires foreign workers to obtain a “No Objection Certificate” from their current employer in order to transfer legally to another employer before the end of their contracts, as well as permission from an unspecified “competent authority” along with the Interior and Labor and Social Affairs Ministries.

If the contract does not specify any time frame, under the new law workers must wait five years before leaving an employer. The workers also must still obtain exit permits from their employers to leave Qatar. The new law provides for a grievance committee for workers in cases in which sponsors refuse to grant exit visas, but the arbitrary restriction on the workers’ right to leave the country remains in place. In practice, this enables employers to arbitrarily prevent their employees from leaving Qatar and returning to their home country.

Qatar’s labor law prohibits migrant workers from unionizing or engaging in strikes, although they make up 99 percent of the private sector workforce.

The new labor law explicitly excludes domestic workers from its remit, and leaves them still more vulnerable to abuse and exploitation. In addition to labor abuses, many domestic workers faced physical and sexual abuse. A law on domestic workers continued to remain in draft form and has not been made public.

Freedom of Expression
In March, Qatar’s emir pardoned and released the poet, Mohamed al-Ajami, whom an appeal court had sentenced to 15 years in prison in 2013 on the basis of the content of poems posted online that criticized Qatar’s ruling family and other Arab rulers.

Qatar issued a law “on the suppression of electronic crimes” in September 2014. The 2014 law criminalizes the spreading of “false news” on the internet and provides for a maximum of three years in jail for anyone who posts online content that “violates social values or principles,” or “insults or slanders others.”

Authorities used the law to detain a journalist from an independent news website, Doha News, after he wrote an article naming a man convicted of a serious criminal offence. Authorities did not press charges, but a Doha News editorial published in October criticized the manner in which authorities were applying the law, and quoted a Qatari attorney who said the law was “like a knife held close to the necks of writers, activists and journalists.”

Qatar’s penal code provides for a maximum of five years in jail for criticism of the emir.

Women’s Rights, Sexual Orientation, and Gender Identity
Qatar’s Law No. 22 of 2006 on family and personal status continues to discriminate against women. Under article 36, a marriage contract is valid when a woman’s male guardian concludes the contract and two male witnesses are present. Article 58 states that it is a wife’s responsibility to look after the household and to obey her husband.

Other than Article 57 of the family law forbidding husbands from hurting their wives physically or morally, and general provisions on assault, the penal code does not criminalize domestic violence or marital rape.

Qatar’s nationality law does not allow Qatari women, unlike Qatari men, married to non-Qatari spouses to pass on their nationality to their children.

Qatar’s penal code punishes “sodomy” with one to three years in prison. Muslims convicted of zina (sex outside of marriage) can be sentenced to flogging (non-married persons) or the death penalty (married persons). Non-Muslims can be sentenced to imprisonment. According to media reports, authorities have flogged dozens of people since 2004, including at least 45 between 2009 and 2011. In 2016, according to media reports, a Dutch woman was arrested after she reported that she was raped. A court handed down a suspended one-year imprisonment sentence for engaging in extramarital sex, and deported her. It also sentenced the man accused of raping her with 100 lashes for having extramarital sex and 40 lashes for drinking alcohol.

Key International Actors
Qatar maintained ground troops in Yemen, where they have been assisting the Saudi-led military campaign against Houthi forces, also known as Ansar Allah. In March, France approved the sale of 24 Dassault Rafael fighter jets to Qatar, in a deal worth US$7.5 billion. In September, the US approved the sale to Qatar of 36 Boeing F-15 fighter jets valued at around $4 billion.

While I am heartened to see you hold Qatar in low regards due to their treatment of the poor and women obviously, it seems Azerbaijan gets a pass because their human rights violations are there to defend the top tier of the government.  

[StLucieBengal]

(04-10-2018, 07:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: Azerbaijan 

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/azerbaijan




Qatar

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/qatar



While I am heartened to see you hold Qatar in low regards due to their treatment of the poor and women obviously, it seems Azerbaijan gets a pass because their human rights violations are there to defend the top tier of the government.  

I never said Azerbaijan was great. I just said it was an actual safe Muslim country to visit. Ofc it’s violent and repressive, it’s a Muslim country, but they will at least use a heavy hand in protecting non Muslims.

Also....why are you surprised Over my Qatar thoughts?

[GMDino]

(04-10-2018, 09:55 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I never said Azerbaijan was great.  I just said it was an actual safe Muslim country to visit.   Ofc it’s violent and repressive, it’s a Muslim country, but they will at least use a heavy hand in protecting non Muslims.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-10-2018, 09:57 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Former Soviet country + muslim isn’t the receipe for freedom. It just means they know how to use the police to put their boot on the throat of those who act up.

[GMDino]

(04-10-2018, 10:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Former Soviet country + muslim isn’t the receipe for freedom.  It just means they know how to use the police to put their boot on the throat of those who act up.

Well, I thought you were defending human rights...

[Dill]

(04-09-2018, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Seems like one question would have sufficed: "Who is MBS?" Although, I thought it was a given with the context of the thread.

However, my question was to inquire where Mohammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, also known as MBS, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia received his Western Education as I only knew of him receiving his Education in the ME (Middle East).

But Fred has set me straight about answering questions; though, he seems fine with yours. 

My bad, not yours. It took me while to figure out.

One can get a Western Education in the Middle East. That is one of Qatar's offerings, for example, to other countries of the GCC. They have a special "Education City" set up in Doha to do just that.

Within Saudi Arabia, the Prince could have gone to the Islamic University of Madinah, where he would have received a traditional education in the four modes of Sunni interpretation.  Though they recently added a basic computer science program, this is still basically a Medieval University.  Check their Mission statement. http://enweb.iu.edu.sa/Page/index/20987

Nothing like this, really, in the West, so far as I know.

Faud is a modern engineering university.  The proudly display their world ranking on their web page.
http://www.kfupm.edu.sa/default.aspx   They do have an Islamic Studies department, but it approximates a religious studies department in any US research university--not the dominate mission.

Sending the Prince there, for a Western as opposed to an Islamic education, was a signal about the future direction of Saudi leadership.  It meant he would learn something of petro-engineering from English texts and English speaking professors, even though his major was law.  And he would take a few courses on subjects like "regional integration" understood from the perspective of modern social science. He would be able to take the long view of Saudi development in a global market, not to mention be able to read English newspapers for himself.

[Dill]

(04-10-2018, 07:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: Azerbaijan 

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/azerbaijan

Qatar

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/qatar

While I am heartened to see you hold Qatar in low regards due to their treatment of the poor and women obviously, it seems Azerbaijan gets a pass because their human rights violations are there to defend the top tier of the government.  

Thanks for the info, Dino.

As someone who actually lived under the "Kafala system" in Qatar for five years,  I could add a few points.  There has been a struggle over foreign labor in Qatar since the 90s.  The progressives were winning until Qatar got that World Cup bid. The American presence there is a constant pressure on them to clean up these labor problems.

Aside from that, they are certainly the most progressive of the Gulf nations, with the most opportunities for women. The Sheikha, the former Emir's second wife,  holds a contest every year with a money prize for the best female business start up. She was co-founder of their vast Education City, which provides western education to women from all developing countries. Women drive and can wear Western clothes in Qatar.  There is a prudent, progressive transfer of power to their version of a parliament.  They have to be careful, though. They are country in which FOUR FIFTHS of the inhabitants are immigrants, non-citizens.

Also, they are the only Gulf State with a two track legal system--one for Muslims and one for non-Muslims. So the Sharia Lucy so fears does not apply to Westerners. (one exception. Don't bring pork into the country.) I spent many a wonderful evening in the restaurants of luxury hotels drinking French wine and American bourbon.   Funny thing though. If you want to purchase liquour to take home, you have to apply for a liquor license and buy from a state store.  That's right. In this country YOU have to have the liquor license, not the liqour store.

As far as infrastructure goes, well, much better than the US, spiffy malls, one of the world's most modern airports.  Don't go there between May and October, but otherwise it is a great tourist destination. Clean, friendly, and safe, especially for "rich" westerners.

Here is a picture of the Sheikha--the only wife of a Gulf ruler to appear with him in public.  She never wears a veil.

[Dill]

(04-10-2018, 02:18 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Qatar is one of the works worst Human rights violators.   A lot of this has to do with sharia law.   It’s a scum bag nation.   You can romanticize them all you like.   We love to travel and see different countries  it there is no way we would go Qatar for any reason.   And before you launch into some anti Muslim thing we have gone to Turkey and Azerbaijan without any issues.   Turkey was admittedly more dicey.

How is Qatar's human rights record compared to our ally, Saudi Arabia?

Funny the way you group so many countries together as "Muslim" and then talk about what "they" are all like. Seems like the only choices out there for you are demonize or romanticize--with no clue I might not be doing either. I don't travel around Europe and the US thinking of them as "Christian" countries.  (I'll admit I did travel in India thinking of it as "Hindu" though.)

How in the world do you connect Sharia law to capitalist exploitation of labor?

Do you understand that many of the companies working in Qatar are Western. Quantex Qatar and Global Building Solutions are headquartered where???   You understand that Qatari construction companies are for the most part shells through which Western firms are hired?  You understand that there, as here, the MONEY is always for rolling back regulations.  That is not "Sharia."  

[StLucieBengal]

(04-10-2018, 11:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Thanks for the info, Dino.

As someone who actually lived under the "Kafala system" in Qatar for five years,  I could add a few points.  There has been a struggle over foreign labor in Qatar since the 90s.  The progressives were winning until Qatar got that World Cup bid. The American presence there is a constant pressure on them to clean up these labor problems.

Aside from that, they are certainly the most progressive of the Gulf nations, with the most opportunities for women. The Sheikha, the former Emir's second wife,  holds a contest every year with a money prize for the best female business start up. She was co-founder of their vast Education City, which provides western education to women from all developing countries. Women drive and can wear Western clothes in Qatar.  There is a prudent, progressive transfer of power to their version of a parliament.  They have to be careful, though. They are country in which FOUR FIFTHS of the inhabitants are immigrants, non-citizens.

Also, they are the only Gulf State with a two track legal system--one for Muslims and one for non-Muslims. So the Sharia Lucy so fears does not apply to Westerners. (one exception. Don't bring pork into the country.) I spent many a wonderful evening in the restaurants of luxury hotels drinking French wine and American bourbon.   Funny thing though. If you want to purchase liquour to take home, you have to apply for a liquor license and buy from a state store.  That's right. In this country YOU have to have the liquor license, not the liqour store.

As far as infrastructure goes, well, much better than the US, spiffy malls, one of the world's most modern airports.  Don't go there between May and October, but otherwise it is a great tourist destination. Clean, friendly, and safe, especially for "rich" westerners.

Here is a picture of the Sheikha--the only wife of a Gulf ruler to appear with him in public.  She never wears a veil.

Glad to see you trust your fate to the laws of Qatar. Seeing travel warnings over wearing a short sleeve shirt is enough to mark it off. My travel list.

[Dill]

(04-10-2018, 11:59 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Glad to see you trust your fate to the laws of Qatar.  Seeing travel warnings over wearing a short sleeve shirt is enough to mark it off. My travel list.

LOL that is the US military.  One Commander gets a crazy idea based on hearsay and makes it a rule. Then it stays operational for 15 years. Tourist agencies in the US pick it up. All kinds of people/women wear short sleeves, even during Ramadan.  I used to carry a long sleeve shirt when I drove off base. I would put it on to get through the check points. Then take it off once off base. On my way back, I would put it on before returning to base.  Don't let these "warnings" drive your imagination overtime. You are  safer in Qatar than in Cincinnati or Florida. Bring your swimsuit. Great beaches and hotel swimming pools. Prep for deep sea fishing and fine dining. Most fun of all--charging the dunes in four wheelers.