Seattle and the minimum wage increase

[Benton]

(07-21-2015, 03:13 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I was referring to this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/01/12/just-why-are-the-unions-supporting-a-rise-in-the-minimum-wage/

That prerogative holds with or without a union. If a minimum wage increase equals a payoff to low skilled employees, it does so without them being unionized. Which is incidental to the impact of and by large labor unions.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-21-2015, 03:22 PM)Benton Wrote: That prerogative holds with or without a union. If a minimum wage increase equals a payoff to low skilled employees, it does so without them being unionized. Which is incidental to the impact of and by large labor unions.

But if they get to adjust pay scale based on federal min wage being raised... Wouldn't that benefit the union? Since fed min wage would be the basement.

[Benton]

(07-21-2015, 03:24 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: But if they get to adjust pay scale based on federal min wage being raised... Wouldn't that benefit the union?  Since fed min wage would be the basement.

Marginally. Any time their workers make more it benefits the union with the idea being the funds from the fees collected are supposed to go back to the members to benefit in the form of lobbying, layoff assistance, etc. And no, it doesn't all go back like it should. There's corruption inherent in every system. But a few extra dollars per hour isn't translating into building some organizational juggernaut as much as it creates an economy where the cost of living stays closer to the rate of inflation. 

[StLucieBengal]

(07-21-2015, 05:43 PM)Benton Wrote: Marginally. Any time their workers make more it benefits the union with the idea being the funds from the fees collected are supposed to go back to the members to benefit in the form of lobbying, layoff assistance, etc. And no, it doesn't all go back like it should. There's corruption inherent in every system. But a few extra dollars per hour isn't translating into building some organizational juggernaut as much as it creates an economy where the cost of living stays closer to the rate of inflation. 

I was under the impression they could renegotiate wages over any increases in fed min wage. If I am wrong then so be it )) Thanks for responding

[fredtoast]

(07-21-2015, 01:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote:  All it took was the desire and will to go out and get a better job. It may and most likely will take some time, but unless you WANT to work minimum wage and/or 3 jobs until you die, that's a small price to pay.

But the fact is that there are a limited number of joibs that people can work themselves up into.  Even if everyone worked hard their are only a limited number of people that will end up with jobs good enough to support a family.

When they system dictates that not everyone can work their way to the top the question becomes "How do we treat the people at the bottom?"

[Ryuko]

(07-21-2015, 10:39 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I would think a place that chargers over $6 for 13 cents worth of rice and beans would be able to afford to pay it's workers $15 an hour.

If you're only getting rice & beans when you go to Chipotle, you've missed the point of Chipotle. 

The same hyperbole could be applied to any restaurant from Subway to Red Lobster. "Can you believe they have the nerve to charge $6 for iceberg lettuce and mayo?!" "$25 for biscuits?!" How do these people stay in business? 

And as always, it's not about what a business can afford, it's about what consumers will pay and what employees will work for.

[jmccracky]

(07-21-2015, 09:26 PM)Ryuko Wrote: If you're only getting rice & beans when you go to Chipotle, you've missed the point of Chipotle. 

The same hyperbole could be applied to any restaurant from Subway to Red Lobster. "Can you believe they have the nerve to charge $6 for iceberg lettuce and mayo?!" "$25 for biscuits?!" How do these people stay in business? 

And as always, it's not about what a business can afford, it's about what consumers will pay and what employees will work for.

But the biscuits are free at Red Lobster.

[*Nately120*]

(07-21-2015, 09:26 PM)Ryuko Wrote: If you're only getting rice & beans when you go to Chipotle, you've missed the point of Chipotle. 

The same hyperbole could be applied to any restaurant from Subway to Red Lobster. "Can you believe they have the nerve to charge $6 for iceberg lettuce and mayo?!" "$25 for biscuits?!" How do these people stay in business? 

And as always, it's not about what a business can afford, it's about what consumers will pay and what employees will work for.

I was being facetious, but I do find pasta, Mexican food, and drinks to be too cost-prohibitive for my liking.

[Benton]

(07-21-2015, 06:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I was under the impression they could renegotiate wages over any increases in fed min wage.   If I am wrong then so be it ))   Thanks for responding

They can try. It's been a long time since I worked an entry level job, but back then (the mid to late 90s when, in my area at least, there were lots of jobs in my area making double minimum wage) there wasn't a lot of negotiating. If you went to work at Wal-Mart, a grocery, fast food place, waitress, etc., you were making the base. 

[StLucieBengal]

(07-22-2015, 12:33 AM)Benton Wrote: They can try. It's been a long time since I worked an entry level job, but back then (the mid to late 90s when, in my area at least, there were lots of jobs in my area making double minimum wage) there wasn't a lot of negotiating. If you went to work at Wal-Mart, a grocery, fast food place, waitress, etc., you were making the base. 

Oh I wasn't speaking about those jobs. I was speaking about the upper tier Union jobs held by SEIU and others... Who can trigger a salary bump if fed min wage changes. I always thought this was the reason that wage didn't rise a whole lot over the years.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-21-2015, 02:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: I followed much the same path...including three years at McDonalds.  A degree that allowed me to get a job within my studies and then gradually moving out of that business to where I am now over 7-8 years.

And now I've been at the same job for 18 years and make a decent salary plus commission.  But over the last few years new ownership has changed the commission and I'm making less than I was 5-6 years ago.  I'm not doing anything different.  Job responsibilities have increased but pay is lower. And if I lost my job tomorrow?  Walmart I guess?  Just to get by?  

You don't just start over somewhere at the same place you left off.  And at 45 can I make it back up before I die?  Or will I be let go at 60 for making too much when then can hire someone younger for a lot less.  Too many companies don't care about your experience as much as they care about how little they can get away with paying you in my experience.

Do you have no savings? I don't, but that's my own fault. If I lost my job tomorrow, yeah, if I had to, I'd go to Walmart or work a minimum wage job ALL THE WHILE LOOKING FOR A JOB THAT SUITS MY SKILL LEVEL. But, it'd be MY fault for not being prepared for such an eventuality.

5 years ago, I quit my job for personal reasons. 3 months later, I found a job that suit my skills that was NOT a minimum wage job. I moved to a different state for better living arrangements and again within 3 months found a non-minimum wage job. I quit that job because I finally found the job that I'm currently working. My employable skill set is not exactly unique yet I was able to find a  job within a relatively short time. All this while I was in my mid-30s.

Anyway, the point being that while there are exceptions, by and large, if you're making minimum wage and you're not a teenager or a retiree, then that's generally your own fault for the decisions you made in life.

[*Nately120*]

(07-22-2015, 12:15 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Do you have no savings? I don't, but that's my own fault. If I lost my job tomorrow, yeah, if I had to, I'd go to Walmart or work a minimum wage job ALL THE WHILE LOOKING FOR A JOB THAT SUITS MY SKILL LEVEL. But, it'd be MY fault for not being prepared for such an eventuality.

People say this, but I doubt many have tried it.  If you are in your 30's and/or just came from a job that requires a skill set and all that jazz do you really think you'll be able to simply get a job in the minimum wage sector so easily?  I have interviewed for jobs that were beneath my resume (and I omitted a number of things that might seem too fancy) and I can assure you at least one person doing the hiring was thinking how much more qualified to do his job than him I was.

Not to mention you also point out that you have no intention of staying there, and while not wanting to work a minimum wage job forever is an admirable quality, it costs money to interview, screen, drug test, hire, and train new people so why would some assistant manager at Wal Mart want to hire someone who is going to be more qualified than everyone there, not want to stick around if he can help it, and probably used to working for organizations that don't treat employees like slaves.  Hell, I know one guy with an education that worked at Wal Mart for a short period of time and he had to convince them he thought unions would immediately destroy everything before they hired him.

I can also tell you that if I walked into a McDonald's and applied for a job using my real credentials they would probably throw me out on the basis of me probably being some sort of blacklisted sex offender and/or some social psychologist looking to covertly gather incriminating data as I worked there.

Ok, super rant over.  I just don't think minimum wage work is as accessible for a normal workforce as you do.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-21-2015, 06:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But the fact is that there are a limited number of joibs that people can work themselves up into.  Even if everyone worked hard their are only a limited number of people that will end up with jobs good enough to support a family. When they system dictates that not everyone can work their way to the top the question becomes "How do we treat the people at the bottom?"

As of now, at least in my community, there are more jobs than there are workers, especially if you throw in minimum wage job opportunities. That is to say, there are jobs available, but people aren't working because they'd rather live off the government.

So, why don't we first fill those actual jobs?

But, to answer your question, let's incentivize them into not living off the government. The government should only provide the very basics of living - food and shelter - for those that TRULY need it.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-22-2015, 12:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: People say this, but I doubt many have tried it.  If you are in your 30's and/or just came from a job that requires a skill set and all that jazz do you really think you'll be able to simply get a job in the minimum wage sector so easily?  I have interviewed for jobs that were beneath my resume (and I omitted a number of things that might seem too fancy) and I can assure you at least one person doing the hiring was thinking how much more qualified to do his job than him I was.

Not to mention you also point out that you have no intention of staying there, and while not wanting to work a minimum wage job forever is an admirable quality, it costs money to interview, screen, drug test, hire, and train new people so why would some assistant manager at Wal Mart want to hire someone who is going to be more qualified than everyone there, not want to stick around if he can help it, and probably used to working for organizations that don't treat employees like slaves.  Hell, I know one guy with an education that worked at Wal Mart for a short period of time and he had to convince them he thought unions would immediately destroy everything before they hired him.

I can also tell you that if I walked into a McDonald's and applied for a job using my real credentials they would probably throw me out on the basis of me probably being some sort of blacklisted sex offender and/or some social psychologist looking to covertly gather incriminating data as I worked there.

Ok, super rant over.  I just don't think minimum wage work is as accessible for a normal workforce as you do.

1st, don't give a minimum wage job your resume unless for some reason they demand it.
2nd, NEVER tell an employer or prospective employer that you're job searching.
3rd, I understand your point, but it really only applies depending on who also is applying for the same job. Walmart is more apt to hire a 30-year old over an 18-year old if they think the former would be more reliable. As you said, it costs money to train someone and they would be wary of hiring a teen if they think he's not going to stay there past orientation.
4th, I like cheese and bacon on my burgers.

[GMDino]

(07-22-2015, 12:15 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Do you have no savings? I don't, but that's my own fault. If I lost my job tomorrow, yeah, if I had to, I'd go to Walmart or work a minimum wage job ALL THE WHILE LOOKING FOR A JOB THAT SUITS MY SKILL LEVEL. But, it'd be MY fault for not being prepared for such an eventuality.

5 years ago, I quit my job for personal reasons. 3 months later, I found a job that suit my skills that was NOT a minimum wage job. I moved to a different state for better living arrangements and again within 3 months found a non-minimum wage job. I quit that job because I finally found the job that I'm currently working. My employable skill set is not exactly unique yet I was able to find a  job within a relatively short time. All this while I was in my mid-30s.

Anyway, the point being that while there are exceptions, by and large, if you're making minimum wage and you're not a teenager or a retiree, then that's generally your own fault for the decisions you made in life.

But in your example the job change was by choice.

I'm talking about sudden change forced on you.

And, no, are savings is nowhere what it should be.  But that is also a choice in that we have two kids and braces and band and and and...you get the idea.

Sometimes life does things to you and you have no part in the decision making process.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-22-2015, 12:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: But in your example the job change was by choice.

I'm talking about sudden change forced on you.

And, no, are savings is nowhere what it should be.  But that is also a choice in that we have two kids and braces and band and and and...you get the idea.

Sometimes life does things to you and you have no part in the decision making process.

Yes, sometimes life does that, but the smart people are prepared. I'm smart, but I'm also lazy and a little greedy. I'd rather spend the money on me now than save it for later, but that's still MY decision.

If my company went under tomorrow and I had to find a new job right away and it was a struggle, guess what, that's MY fault for not being prepared, which is really bad because I KNOW I should be saving money. lol

[*Nately120*]

(07-22-2015, 12:36 PM)PhilHos Wrote: 1st, don't give a minimum wage job your resume unless for some reason they demand it.
2nd, NEVER tell an employer or prospective employer that you're job searching.
3rd, I understand your point, but it really only applies depending on who also is applying for the same job. Walmart is more apt to hire a 30-year old over an 18-year old if they think the former would be more reliable. As you said, it costs money to train someone and they would be wary of hiring a teen if they think he's not going to stay there past orientation.
4th, I like cheese and bacon on my burgers.

1.  Makes sense...it's been a while since I even thought of resume-free applications
2.  Easy, but unless you are in "actor mode" they might realize you aren't a standard minimum wage worker
3.  True, but why hire an ambitious guy who might run up against you when you are looking to ascend (unless they'd actually give you credit for bringing someone ambitious in) when you can hire a schlub who won't rock the boat?
4.  I'm going to get your burger wrong to test my hypothesis that people are jerks

[fredtoast]

(07-22-2015, 12:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: As of now, at least in my community, there are more jobs than there are workers, especially if you throw in minimum wage job opportunities. That is to say, there are jobs available, but people aren't working because they'd rather live off the government.

So, why don't we first fill those actual jobs?

But, to answer your question, let's incentivize them into not living off the government. The government should only provide the very basics of living - food and shelter - for those that TRULY need it.

So how do you know that there are more jobs than workers available?

[GMDino]

(07-22-2015, 12:42 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, sometimes life does that, but the smart people are prepared. I'm smart, but I'm also lazy and a little greedy. I'd rather spend the money on me now than save it for later, but that's still MY decision.

If my company went under tomorrow and I had to find a new job right away and it was a struggle, guess what, that's MY fault for not being prepared, which is really bad because I KNOW I should be saving money. lol

And that's you.  I'm neither but still in a situation where reining in everything we spend is like herding cats. 

Nonetheless I'm as prepared as I can be...which still probably won't be enough.

[fredtoast]

(07-22-2015, 12:15 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Anyway, the point being that while there are exceptions, by and large, if you're making minimum wage and you're not a teenager or a retiree, then that's generally your own fault for the decisions you made in life.

Even if every person worked as hard as he could there would still be the same percentage of jobs that would pay minimum wage.

That is the way the system works.  That is the truth that some people try to hide.  It is impossible for everyone to have a high paying job no matter how hard everyone works.  the system is set up so that a large portion of the workers will get low pay.  The wealthy elite try to blame poverty on laziness, but in fact the system is to blame.  When they are asked to pay higher wages because the system is not fair they start the propaganda machine pumping out the lie that if everyone worked hard then everyone would have a high paying job.  That just is not true.  In fact it is impossible under our current system.