Should the government pay off student's debt?

[HarleyDog]

(07-17-2023, 03:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well that's the kind of in-depth discussion I've come to expect...lol.

May be so bold as to ask why?  Same tax money, just going to the people using it without them potentially dying just to get it.

I'm against paying these college debts. But, if it's something we are going to do, I believe they should earn it. That's not a lot to ask. Why is it you think they should get it free? What makes these students so much better than everyone else before them who worked hard for it. It's not my fault if they didn't read the terms of the loan. It's not my fault they chose low-paying degrees. 

[HarleyDog]

(07-17-2023, 03:48 PM)Dill Wrote: How many aircraft carriers do they have?

(07-17-2023, 03:58 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: They have 2. US have 24 of them.

Why do you downplay the threat? This kind of reasoning is why we are here and China's the largest Navy in the world. They are fitting a third aircraft carrier and are expected to have 5-6 by 2030. We, however, have a ship-building problem. I watched an episode of 60 minutes a few weeks ago and our Navy is very concerned about China. (2) The State of the Navy; "Only in America" | 60 Minutes Full Episodes - YouTube It's a good watch and I urge you to take a look.

Did a little search to better answer your question: According to a 2021 report by the United States Naval Institute, China has the world’s largest navy, with more than 355 vessels in its fleet[color=var(--cib-color-foreground-accent-primary)]1[/color]. The United States Navy has approximately 490 ships in both active service and the reserve fleet; of these approximately 60 ships are proposed or scheduled for retirement, while approximately 90 new ships are in either the planning and ordering stages or under construction, according to the Naval Vessel Register and published reports

Now think about how fast their Navy has grown and our inability to maintain. Currently, we don't have the manpower to build ships and our costs are skyrocketing. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-17-2023, 04:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I'm against paying these college debts. But, if it's something we are going to do, I believe they should earn it. That's not a lot to ask. Why is it you think they should get it free? What makes these students so much better than everyone else before them who worked hard for it. It's not my fault if they didn't read the terms of the loan. It's not my fault they chose low-paying degrees. 

Some would say that seeing has college used to be a lot more affordable, and wages for graduating college educated people used to be more competitive with inflation, depending on who you voted for this situation may be more of "your fault" than you think.  Going to college didn't always put you so far behind this 8 ball, historically. 

If there is one thing I've noticed across our economically-driven threads in here it's that there is increasing bi-partisan realization that our 43 year quest to maximize corporate profits in the hopes that it'll be a driving force for universal financial gain is coming up short, to say the least.  Someone might be "at fault" for that.

Personally, I'll pay off my student loans...I'm just sick of people looking at my generation and complaining that we aren't spending enough money supporting any business that isn't Nelnet.

[HarleyDog]

(07-17-2023, 05:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm just sick of people looking at my generation and complaining that we aren't spending enough money supporting any business that isn't Nelnet.

I don't understand this part.

[*Nately120*]

(07-17-2023, 05:22 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't understand this part.

There are plenty of articles and complaints that millennials are "killing" various industries and markets.  Maybe those articles have fizzled out now that people realize millennials like myself are in their 40s by now.

The idea is that if you are smart with your money you aren't supposed to splurge on things that aren't necessary or have kids until you're financially secure, and since a lot of money is being paid off to predatory student loan providers with some wallet-killing interest rates there isn't much left to spend on stuff that other people make a living selling.

So yeah, I took out student loans rather that sign up to be in the army before we elected another Bush and ended up entering a 20 year war (thankfully, because I'd rather have debt than roll those dice).  I've paid on my student loans and I'm not suffering, but I also have never gone on vacation, or bought a new car, I didn't have a wedding when I got married, there was no diamond engagement ring that cost 2 months salary involved, and so on and so forth.

I don't know anyone who works for Nelnet, but I know a lot of people who sell stuff I'm not buying because I'm being fiscally responsible and sending my money to pay off my student loans.  I only point this out because there has been a lot of moaning about how the same people who need to pay their student loans aren't spending money on stuff people spent money on when it was much easier to pay off student loans.

Shopping small, buying American, having kids...it takes a backseat to paying those loans.  I'm not saying anyone should pay them off but me, but society needs to get off my ass about killing all their precious industries and not having 5+ white, middle-class, god-fearing children. 

[Dill]

(07-17-2023, 04:53 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Why do you downplay the threat? This kind of reasoning is why we are here and China's the largest Navy in the world. They are fitting a third aircraft carrier and are expected to have 5-6 by 2030. We, however, have a ship-building problem. I watched an episode of 60 minutes a few weeks ago and our Navy is very concerned about China. (2) The State of the Navy; "Only in America" | 60 Minutes Full Episodes - YouTube It's a good watch and I urge you to take a look.

Did a little search to better answer your question: According to a 2021 report by the United States Naval Institute, China has the world’s largest navy, with more than 355 vessels in its fleet[color=var(--cib-color-foreground-accent-primary)]1[/color]. The United States Navy has approximately 490 ships in both active service and the reserve fleet; of these approximately 60 ships are proposed or scheduled for retirement, while approximately 90 new ships are in either the planning and ordering stages or under construction, according to the Naval Vessel Register and published reports

Now think about how fast their Navy has grown and our inability to maintain. Currently, we don't have the manpower to build ships and our costs are skyrocketing. 

Yo H-Dog. I share your anxiety over China. They are the U.S.' only full spectrum adversary; Iran, NK, and Russia are only military threats.

So I don't want to downplay China. I am just saying that, at this point in time, their little carriers are not to be compared with ours. They cannot protect themselves and cannot operate effectively away from land-based aircraft. They still don't have AWACS capability, as far as I know. U.S. carrier groups are true, "blue water" forces that can operate around the world. Plus the U.S. has generations of tactical experience deploying them in peace and war.

I'm also saying that a boat count is not the best way to judge naval power nowadays. One USS Zumwalt = how many of their destroyers? 

I do have concern on two fronts, though. A few years ago, a Chinese diesel sub briefly surfaced amidst a U.S. carrier group and then disappeared. Also, the Chinese shot down one of their own communications satellites. These two events worry me WAY more than China's greater number of inferior ships. And they worry me RIGHT NOW. Those presage real threats to our carrier groups, not little ski jump boats launching underpowered jet fighters.

Second front--over the next 20-30 years--by 2049 (Xi's stated goal) their Navy and military could compare with the U.S. But this is as much an economic and geopolitical battle as one of technological innovation and ship numbers. We need to be thinking in more comprehensive (i.e., not just technological terms), with planning in 10-year and longer increments, and make keeping our diplomatic advantage* a priority. 

On the positive side, there is nothing inevitable about Chinese military dominance. Their economy has to perform--and it might not. They have to match U.S. diplomatic power; not in sight at the moment. The U.S. still has so many geopolitical and diplomatic advantages. I don't see how China can turn this--except by U.S. unforced errors. Or own-goals--like pulling out of the TPP and creating a China Sea power vacuum for China to fill, forcing potential U.S. allies to accommodate China.


*This advantage includes not only many allies who allow us military bases and observations posts ringing China, but also those who are ready to lend massive economic weight to containment policies--so long as the US-led international systems seems preferable to a Chinese-led one. The rising number of dictatorships in the world threatens this system though. 

[GMDino]

(07-17-2023, 01:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Other countries have done it.  Why can't we?

Oh crap...I remember why.  America has this mythos of "If *I* had to do something one way everyone should.  Why should it be easier for someone else!"

So dumb.  

I always thought our job was to make it easier for the next generation.

John Adams, the 2nd President of the United States, once said:




What a country.  What a world.

(07-17-2023, 04:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I'm against paying these college debts. But, if it's something we are going to do, I believe they should earn it. That's not a lot to ask. Why is it you think they should get it free? What makes these students so much better than everyone else before them who worked hard for it. It's not my fault if they didn't read the terms of the loan. It's not my fault they chose low-paying degrees. 

As if on cue.

Why help others now if things were hard before?  Because that's what we're supposed to do...help others.  Especially those who came after us.  

We're supposed to be making things better, easier.  Not make them suffer as much as we did.

[Dill]

(07-17-2023, 05:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't know anyone who works for Nelnet, but I know a lot of people who sell stuff I'm not buying because I'm being fiscally responsible and sending my money to pay off my student loans.  I only point this out because there has been a lot of moaning about how the same people who need to pay their student loans aren't spending money on stuff people spent money on when it was much easier to pay off student loans.

Shopping small, buying American, having kids...it takes a backseat to paying those loans.  I'm not saying anyone should pay them off but me, but society needs to get off my ass about killing all their precious industries and not having 5+ white, middle-class, god-fearing children. 

Well said. Points up another downside to predatory lending. 

People will not figure this out as long as they keep blaming students for taking out loans,

and not the lenders, and how these have used government backing to "harvest" debt. 

In the case of public schools, I still blame legislatures for the greater share of rising tuition.

People won't figure that out either, if they keep thinking of Universities as institutions operating for profit, like businesses.

[HarleyDog]

(07-17-2023, 05:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: There are plenty of articles and complaints that millennials are "killing" various industries and markets.  Maybe those articles have fizzled out now that people realize millennials like myself are in their 40s by now.

I think there is a big misunderstanding among people on who to lay blame. We are now facing gen z. The laziest, fragile, and entitled generation in history. Millennials are not so bad anymore. I'm a gen x'er. The last company I worked for, we used to have meetings on how to attract gen z'ers to get off their ass and come into the workplace. No kiddling. One idea was to put an x-box in the breakroom so they could play games during breaks. Sigh.

I stumbled upon this father/son duo on reels I found really entertaining. https://www.facebook.com/reel/1421201285086617

[Dill]

(07-17-2023, 04:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I'm against paying these college debts. But, if it's something we are going to do, I believe they should earn it. That's not a lot to ask. Why is it you think they should get it free? What makes these students so much better than everyone else before them who worked hard for it. It's not my fault if they didn't read the terms of the loan. It's not my fault they chose low-paying degrees. 

Well, public education k-12 is "free." And we think children should get that because it elevates the nation economically and in many other respects.

One thing that bothers me about "education" now, which is mostly higher vocational training, 

is that many private entities who have control over and benefit from that training have socialized its cost.

Back in the 19th century, big businesses paid employees to learn accounting if they needed accountants.

They recognized quickly the advantages of socializing costs of education. Taxpayers then paid for math skills.

Now students are training to help employers, but going in debt to pay for it them selves. 

What a sweet system for corporations. No one is even looking their direction.

[HarleyDog]

(07-17-2023, 06:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Well, public education k-12 is "free." And we think children should get that because it elevates the nation economically and in many other respects.

One thing that bothers me about "education" now, which is mostly higher vocational training, 

is that many private entities who have control over and benefit from that training have socialized its cost.

Back in the 19th century, big businesses paid employees to learn accounting if they needed accountants.

They recognized quickly the advantages of socializing costs of education. Taxpayers then paid for math skills.

Now students are training to help employers, but going in debt to pay for it them selves. 

What a sweet system for corporations. No one is even looking their direction.

Good thing you brought this up. Tuition reimbursement could be an alternate solution to serving in the military. Instead of the gov paying it off, they could subsidize employers for investing in college graduates and paying down their college debt. Not a fix all, but it does create more avenues to resolve.

[*Nately120*]

(07-17-2023, 06:12 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I think there is a big misunderstanding among people on who to lay blame. We are now facing gen z. The laziest, fragile, and entitled generation in history. Millennials are not so bad anymore. I'm a gen x'er. The last company I worked for, we used to have meetings on how to attract gen z'ers to get off their ass and come into the workplace. No kiddling. One idea was to put an x-box in the breakroom so they could play games during breaks. Sigh.

I stumbled upon this father/son duo on reels I found really entertaining. https://www.facebook.com/reel/1421201285086617

Some say the American pastime is baseball, but I say the American pastime is complaining about what lazy and entitled losers the younger generations are.  I'm not even sure if it's my generations fault for being so crap since we were raised by baby boomers who were apparently total crap according to the WWII generation.

If you're gen Z you were raised by parents who were dressing up like chicks during the hair metal era and snorting coke like it was nothing more than taking a coffee break.  Kids today never had a chance.  Or maybe gen Z was raised by people who grew up idolizing Beavis and Butthead, I can't even keep track.

Also, putting an X box in the break room makes sense these days.  Lord knows it isn't like the good ol days when people could afford to spend their money and their breaks giving themselves cancer.  Oddly enough, the lowest paying jobs I had gave me nothing more than access to vending machines, an ashtray and an old newspaper on a table for my breaks and the highest paying jobs I've had had free kegs of beer, fancy coffee, food and snacks, pool tables, big TVs, arcade machines and other silly little bonuses.  

I've lived long enough to know that the perks are for the people who don't really need them.

[KillerGoose]

(07-17-2023, 06:12 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I think there is a big misunderstanding among people on who to lay blame. We are now facing gen z. The laziest, fragile, and entitled generation in history. Millennials are not so bad anymore. I'm a gen x'er. The last company I worked for, we used to have meetings on how to attract gen z'ers to get off their ass and come into the workplace. No kiddling. One idea was to put an x-box in the breakroom so they could play games during breaks. Sigh.

I stumbled upon this father/son duo on reels I found really entertaining. https://www.facebook.com/reel/1421201285086617

I've never thought this argument held much water. We have been complaining about the young generation for thousands of years at this point. They are always lazy, entitled, rude or whatever else there is. I remember hearing it when I was a kid, too. It's never been right, but I promise one day gen z will be complaining about the newest era, too. 

They are just different. The issue is that people don't like different. Having a gaming console in the break room is a great idea, especially if it improves morale. My last office job had an Xbox, a keg, pool table, arcade games and a bunch of other things. The whole office loved it and it was great for folks to go burn some time if they didn't have anything else to do. 

[HarleyDog]

Kegs of beer at work? Damn, I chose the wrong career.

[*Nately120*]

(07-17-2023, 07:15 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Kegs of beer at work? Damn, I chose the wrong career.

When I lived in Chicago I had a temporary consulting gig for a marketing company and there was a bar and free drinks while you work and bean bag chairs and all the over the top stuff you'd imagine they'd have.  I worked on Madison Avenue back in my grad school days (expensive ass grad school...whoops) and whatever company we'd be working on an initiative for would give us a lot of free product.  I was working on a brand elasticity project for Godiva chocolate when they were looking to expand into the coffee market and we had boxes of fancy chocolate just sitting around to eat or take home, we got NFL tickets, and so on and so forth.  In my experience, you start getting stuff for free when you need it the least.  Handouts are only shameful if you need them.

That's one of the reasons I always thought it was a bit silly people wondered why NFL players complained that the Bengals ownership wouldn't let them have free Gatorade and stuff. The more easily you can afford something, the less you usually have to pay to get it. This ties back to our topic, because it's easier to pay off a mortgage or an education if your parents can write a check for it and give you an interest free loan on it (I've known people who had parents who did this with their houses or education), or just pay it for you.

As Claude Rains sang in that goofy Pied Piper movie "Prestige is a dinner they give you for fun, which they would not have done if you really needed one."

[samhain]

My feel-good patriotic solution is this: Make trade schools free and promote the hell out of them. Train welders, electricians, even engineers. Take these people and give them government jobs fixing infrastructure. Let them work for the federal and state governments for at least 4 years. They can gain real-world experience while supplying the country with the labor it needs to update it's declining roads, electrical grid, bridges, etc. From there, they could either stay with the government and move up or they can seek more money and better opportunities elsewhere. Start their own businesses, work for corporate firms, so on ad so forth.

[Luvnit2]

(07-17-2023, 06:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Well, public education k-12 is "free." And we think children should get that because it elevates the nation economically and in many other respects.

One thing that bothers me about "education" now, which is mostly higher vocational training, 

is that many private entities who have control over and benefit from that training have socialized its cost.

Back in the 19th century, big businesses paid employees to learn accounting if they needed accountants.

They recognized quickly the advantages of socializing costs of education. Taxpayers then paid for math skills.

Now students are training to help employers, but going in debt to pay for it them selves. 

What a sweet system for corporations. No one is even looking their direction.

Tell me if i am wrong, but you appear to be talking about apprenticeships. Trust me apprenticeships have been around for 60 years. Do you realize to get some college degrees it is the college that requires the student to work in their field. One of my daughters has a nursing degree, she had to work for free for nursing homes and different hospitals her junior and senior year.

It is just the large corporations that are an easy target, it is a lot deeper than that and be going on for at least 50 years non stop that I have personally seen.

[HarleyDog]

(07-17-2023, 07:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: When I lived in Chicago I had a temporary consulting gig for a marketing company and there was a bar and free drinks while you work and bean bag chairs and all the over the top stuff you'd imagine they'd have.  I worked on Madison Avenue back in my grad school days (expensive ass grad school...whoops) and whatever company we'd be working on an initiative for would give us a lot of free product.  I was working on a brand elasticity project for Godiva chocolate when they were looking to expand into the coffee market and we had boxes of fancy chocolate just sitting around to eat or take home, we got NFL tickets, and so on and so forth.  In my experience, you start getting stuff for free when you need it the least.  Handouts are only shameful if you need them.

That's one of the reasons I always thought it was a bit silly people wondered why NFL players complained that the Bengals ownership wouldn't let them have free Gatorade and stuff.  The more easily you can afford something, the less you usually have to pay to get it.  This ties back to our topic, because it's easier to pay off a mortgage or an education if your parents can write a check for it and give you an interest free loan on it (I've known people who had parents who did this with their houses or education), or just pay it for you.

As Claude Rains sang in that goofy Pied Piper movie "Prestige is a dinner they give you for fun, which they would not have done if you really needed one.

I've never thought about it but your right about handouts. I don't think I would be as much against writing off all this debt as I am if this nation's financial strength was solid. But it isn't. I worry about the elderly. I worry about SS. 
 NFL Players have to pay for their own Gatorade? I mean, it's not like they have a drinking fountain on the field. 

[*pally*]

Just like in everything else, we cannot keep running businesses like it was 40 years ago. Young people today learned from watching their parents get laid off after decades of service to a company. They watched as pay raises didn't come for them but did for the bosses. They watched Hedge Fund owners financially decimate their employers all to put every dime into the investor's pockets. They watched as benefits disappeared or dramatically went up in cost. They watched as unions and their protections got busted. They watched their replacements get hired on "temporary" work visas as they headed for the unemployment lines.

Tell me...why should Gen Z bust their asses for someone else. Come in, do the job, go home. There is zero incentive for them to put in anything other than the basic effort they won't get raises and promotions are few and far between. X-boxes are nice but don't replace cold hard cash.

Gotta change the workplace to attract better talent.

[HarleyDog]

(07-18-2023, 09:11 AM)pally Wrote:   X-boxes are nice but don't replace cold hard cash.  

One of our directors was sitting at home having dinner with his family and asked his 18yr old son, who was unemployed, what it would take to get young people to come to work. The xbox was the son's idea, and the director brought that idea to a meeting. Something else interesting the kid said was it wasn't about the money (we paid well compared to other industries), it was about time. He didn't want to spend 8hrs, or 1/2 his day working. He wanted to work 4-6 hours and still have time for himself. I get it, I really do. I hate working all day myself and unless people really enjoy their careers, I'm sure they're not fond of it either.

Cold hard cash is not the motivator it once was.