So Rob Portman voted to confirm Betsy DeVos

[Benton]

(02-08-2017, 09:19 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Funny that you mentioned Louisville, because they bus their students all across the city, so they can ride a bus for an hour+ to get to school nowhere near their home.

rumor is bevin started cackling and tenting fingers at the thought of re-segregation.

[GMDino]

I was thinking about the whole "well what qualifications SHOULD she have" argument last night.

This line of questioning implies that there is/should be some list of things someone must have to be Sec. of Education and if there isn't than ANYONE is qualified.

I don't agree with that  either.

DeVos' primary qualification is her involvement in her foundations and donations to push charter schools.  I belong to a group that is pushing for Weird Al to get into the Rock and Roll HOF.  I graduated with a degree in mass media.  I worked in radio for years.  I don't think I should head the FCC.

And even if I did think I was qualified if when asked questions about how the system generally works (not specific programs or policies) and could not answer them I would recuse myself once I realized I didn't know even the basics despite thinking I knew what was best.

So while I don't know what qualifications are required for the job I do know that she is unqualified based on her own answers.

[Aquapod770]

(02-07-2017, 11:14 PM)Benton Wrote: I think that is the concern.

education woes in this country largely go back to funding. Public pay for private schools stretches those resources(tax dollars) even thinner. And, mostly, without any improved results.

personally, this doesn't bother me. My kids  are fortunate enough to go to school in a small rural district that has insanely high property values for Kentucky. So they get the benefit of small classes and lots of resources. But I can see where other people are concerned about moving their tax dollars to make it cheaper for an upper income family to segregate their kids from the poverty riddled riff raff*.


no idea if "riff raff" is spelled correctly, I went to a public school where they glued the textbooks shut if they disagreed with them.

justfacts.com/education.asp

School choice and voucher programs tend to have positive impacts on students. Even the ones still in the public school.

[mallorian69]

(02-08-2017, 06:52 AM)Benton Wrote: every school official I've talked to brings it back to the same problem, money. From building better facilities to hiring more qualified people to having decent equipment.

the article says the u.s. Outspends a lot of other countries but it doesn't get into how they reach that breakdown. Are they lumping private schools in? It does say teachers are the biggest expense, but doesn't get into if the increase in salaries is reflective of cost of living, or if those numbers include higher staff to handle transportation, food etc. Costs per students in the us is going to be higher where kids have to be transported for hours on busses, which is different in countries that are basically the size Louisville.

Of course they are going to say it all boils down to money. Would you go to your boss and tell him that you are overpaid AND suck at your job all in the same breath?

[*bfine32*]

(02-08-2017, 10:30 AM)GMDino Wrote: while I don't know what qualifications are required for the job I do know that she is unqualified based on her own answers.

This solidifies the official motto I have assigned to this forum numerous times:

"I don't know the right answer, I just know yours is wrong".

Our elementary education system has been failing over they last decade or so. I would suggest lack of traditional qualifications could, in itself, be a qualification.

Think on it some more.

[GMDino]

(02-08-2017, 02:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This solidifies the official motto I have assigned to this forum numerous times:

"I don't know the right answer, I just know yours is wrong".

Our elementary education system has been failing over they last decade or so. I would suggest lack of traditional qualifications could, in itself, be a qualification.

Think on it some more.

I asked why someone would think she is qualified. 

The only answer so far has been "nothing else works".

But things HAVE worked.  But people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And it's not just saving the education system.  The job involves a lot more than that.

And she shows no knowledge of any of it.

A smarter, honest person would admit that that not accept the nomination.

A person who is a one trick pony and wants the power to try and force her ideas on an entire nation wouldn't.  Even if she has to swallow her pride and accept it from a man she wouldn't endorse for POTUS.

No matter how ill-suited they are for the job.

I'm not saying my way is the only way or the best way and your way is wrong and sucks.  I'm saying you wouldn't ask the least prepared person in the room to perform delicate surgery on your loved ones no matter how far along their injuries are and when there are other people who have an idea of what is going on.

[*bfine32*]

(02-08-2017, 02:53 PM)GMDino Wrote: I asked why someone would think she is qualified. 

The only answer so far has been "nothing else works".

But things HAVE worked.  But people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And it's not just saving the education system.  The job involves a lot more than that.

And she shows no knowledge of any of it.

A smarter, honest person would admit that that not accept the nomination.

A person who is a one trick pony and wants the power to try and force her ideas on an entire nation wouldn't.  Even if she has to swallow her pride and accept it from a man she wouldn't endorse for POTUS.

No matter how ill-suited they are for the job.

I'm not saying my way is the only way or the best way and your way is wrong and sucks.  I'm saying you wouldn't ask the least prepared person in the room to perform delicate surgery on your loved ones no matter how far along their injuries are and when there are other people who have an idea of what is going on.

The surgery anology is not relevant as there are specific requirements one must meet to practice medicine; however, in her position all I've gotten for a qualification is "some experience in education".

This lady is not going to be in any classroom educating anyone; she is simply a politician. She doesn't have to usual experiences the last few have had; although one could argue she's in line with Clinton SOE. Our current elementary education system is falling and often times in business we bring in someone known as a "change agent" to refocus the organization or diversity hires if we want to change the culture.

Trump is a businessman and it appears he wants to run the country as a business. Everybody screaming at the top of their lungs "It will fail" before it is given a chance are just being closed minded and petty. Including Pocahontas reciting Correata Scott King after she had been told to stop of course that is just her way of saying another appointee is "not qualified".

[GMDino]

(02-08-2017, 03:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The surgery anology is not relevant as there are specific requirements one must meet to practice medicine; however, in her position all I've gotten for a qualification is "some experience in education".

This lady is not going to be in any classroom educating anyone; she is simply a politician. She doesn't have to usual experiences the last few have had; although one could argue she's in line with Clinton SOE. Our current elementary education system is falling and often times in business we bring in someone known as a "change agent" to refocus the organization or diversity hires if we want to change the culture.

Trump is a businessman and it appears he wants to run the country as a business. Everybody screaming at the top of their lungs "It will fail" before it is given a chance are just being closed minded and petty. Including Pocahontas reciting Correata Scott King after she had been told to stop of course that is just her way of saying another appointee is "not qualified".

She's not even a politician.  She just has money to give to politicians.

Hiring someone to save a program who hasn't shown any ideas (well, one) to save the program isn't even good business.

That doesn't mean she will definitely fail.  It means she is not starting off with the best possible chances.

But the reference to "Pocahontas" tells me this conversation was probably over before it started.

[Benton]

(02-08-2017, 02:09 PM)mallorian69 Wrote: Of course they are going to say it all boils down to money. Would you go to your boss and tell him that you are overpaid AND suck at your job all in the same breath?

Er, that's not exactly the same thing.

When a district performs low and I go to the Superintendent and say "why are your students testing X amount of points below the state, and Y below the region?" I've never had one say "Well, jeez, Joe, it's because I don't get paid enough."

The usual answer was "Because my teachers are working out of textbooks that are 10-12 years old. My science lab is basically a bunch of tables and PowerPoint slides. I can't get quality staff because insurance is insanely high, and a person with a four year math or sc ience degree can go down the street and make three times the pay, with much better benefits."

Granted, I'm not an education beat writer any more. Maybe in the last 5-6 years, schools across the country have magically been gifted current textbooks, high quality staff, and hands on equipment for computer labs, science labs, engineering programs, etc. No kidding, one high school in my coverage area had six computers in a computer lab. Expecting them to teach computer literacy to 600-700ish kids is laughable. It's physically impossible for each kid to get a few hours a week on one.

[Beaker]

As a teacher, I don't care much for Devoss or her ideas. But I am not too worried about her. I think she will have very little to no impact at the K-12 level. Where she could cause a problem is at the college level where the DOE makes decisions about funding.

[BoomerFan]

Maybe it is isn't true of every position but for at least some appointments it is pretty important to have a competent appointee. The words "You're doing a heckuva job, Brownie" come to mind.

[*Nately120*]

(02-08-2017, 03:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump is a businessman and it appears he wants to run the country as a business. Everybody screaming at the top of their lungs "It will fail" before it is given a chance are just being closed minded and petty.

Trump already has a resume people can look to when deciding his business acumen and the likelihood his latest business venture, the USA, will succeed.  I don't understand why people insist on acting like Donald Trump just materialized 3 months ago.  The guy has been pretty well known (for good and ill) for the past 30 years or so, hasn't he?  Is Trump going to run the USA better than he ran the USFL?

If I need to hire someone and I look at his/her resume and actually use past success/failures/qualifications as a means to predict future actions and impacts am I being petty and closed-minded? What do you do for a living? Can I work for you? Give me a chance, ya closed-minded dolt!

[*bfine32*]

(02-08-2017, 08:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump already has a resume people can look to when deciding his business acumen and the likelihood his latest business venture, the USA, will succeed.  I don't understand why people insist on acting like Donald Trump just materialized 3 months ago.  The guy has been pretty well known (for good and ill) for the past 30 years or so, hasn't he?  Is Trump going to run the USA better than he ran the USFL?

If I need to hire someone and I look at his/her resume and actually use past success/failures/qualifications as a means to predict future actions and impacts am I being petty and closed-minded?  What do you do for a living?  Can I work for you?  Give me a chance, ya closed-minded dolt!

Donald Trump has been a very successful business man throughout his life, to suggest otherwise is just silly. Anyone that thinks they can point to a failure here and there and try to counter the overall success of a career cannot see the forest for the trees. 

Sure you can look at someone's past and predict future results; however, it is not a perfect science. The truly skilled employer can see past the facade. Unfortunately, you cannot currently come to work for me; although, I am currently short 3 employees;  as Trump has issued a hiring freeze. This has also frozen my upward movement as I am unable to hire my replacement. L can almost guarantee that Trump's action since taking office have affected me more adversely than anyone in the forum constantly complaining about him, his policies, and his appointments. It's just that I've always lived by the principles of the Old Bull and the Young Bull. Lots of young bulls in this forum. 

[*Nately120*]

(02-08-2017, 08:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Donald Trump has been a very successful business man throughout his life, to suggest otherwise is just silly. Anyone that thinks they can point to a failure here and there and try to counter the overall success of a career cannot see the forest for the trees. 

Hey now, I voted for the very successful businessman who wasn't conveniently born super rich.

[GMDino]

(02-08-2017, 09:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Hey now, I voted for the very successful businessman who wasn't conveniently born super rich.

Trump was very successful.

And his inauguration had the biggest attendance and worldwide viewership ever.

And the event in Yemen went perfectly and was absolutely a success.

And...

Well, you get the point.

[BoomerFan]

(02-08-2017, 08:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Donald Trump has been a very successful business man throughout his life, to suggest otherwise is just silly. Anyone that thinks they can point to a failure here and there and try to counter the overall success of a career cannot see the forest for the trees. 

Donald Trump's Many Business Failures, Explained - Newsweek
Donald Trump Is A Mediocre Businessman, And His Record Proves It.

Donald Trump Business Record: A Red Flag? | National Review



Are you saying that if someone had taken issue with GWB's appointment of Mike Brown they would've been wrong until Katrina proved what a disaster he was? It was clear he lacked experience in an essential post. And DeVos is even more lacking. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-08-2017, 09:56 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Donald Trump's Many Business Failures, Explained - Newsweek
Donald Trump Is A Mediocre Businessman, And His Record Proves It.

Donald Trump Business Record: A Red Flag? | National Review



Are you saying that if someone had taken issue with GWB's appointment of Mike Brown they would've been wrong until Katrina proved what a disaster he was? It was clear he lacked experience in an essential post. And DeVos is even more lacking. 

bfine32 Wrote:Donald Trump has been a very successful business man throughout his life, to suggest otherwise is just silly. Anyone that thinks they can point to a failure here and there and try to counter the overall success of a career cannot see the forest for the trees.

How unexpected: Links to opinion articles that point to a few of his business failures in the past 50 years. These things work for liberals because as a whole they have very little business acumen. They just read these things with out taking in the whole of a business that is worth up to 10 billion dollars and say "see he is bad at business".

[BmorePat87]

(02-07-2017, 09:51 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Thoughts? I've heard she was like his 4th largest donor during his last campaign for re-election. Between personal and SuperPac donations, Portman's campaign got something like $58,500 from DeVos. Of course, he likely still would have voted for her. Personally, even if you are religious I think this should concern most people, especially if you have kids.

I saw his facebook post about it. He basically said she was qualified because her mom was a teacher... lol

The reality is, despite many of these GOP senators who got tens of thousands from her and her family saying she is qualified, none could point to anything that truly makes her qualified. 

(02-07-2017, 09:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: No matter who they picked for education, they would have sucked. Regardless of which party, they would have chosen someone rich who either doesn't have kids, or whose kids will never see the insides of a public school in their life.

I disagree. Trump spoke with Michelle Rhee following the election. Like past Secretaries, she would have been selected for her experience, not for her money. 

[McC]

(02-08-2017, 12:29 AM)GMDino Wrote: So well educated and belongs to a foundation.

That's it?

Wow.

I have a college degree and want schools to be better too!  Maybe someday I can donated thousands of dollars and be nominated for a cabinet position. 

But then we have Rick Perry who didn't even know what the job is so I guess maybe it's a step up?

Still waiting on that list of qualifications.  Lots of sound, no fury whatsoever.  Typical.

[BmorePat87]

(02-08-2017, 12:09 AM)bfine32 Wrote: First we must list the unbiased qualifications required to be the Secretary of Education. I'll let you (or anybody else speaking of not qualified do that)

Secondly she is well educated and the Chairman of this:
http://www.federationforchildren.org/about-us/

Looking at the duties of the department and the past secretaries, a candidate should have one or more of the following:

-Experience running a school system or university.
-Executive experience overseeing education
-Experience enforcing education laws
-Experience drafting and passing education policy at the federal level
-Experience overseeing billion dollar or more loan programs


And just so we're clear, the Federation for Children is just a school choice lobbying group. So her experience, as many have repeated, is that she has spent money to convince lawmakers that public schools do not work, despite having no experience attending, working in, or running a public school.

If I was born into money and then married into more money and decided to spend my money telling politicians that national parks suck, despite having never visited one or worked at one, does that make me qualified to be Secretary of the Interior? Maybe if I was well educated and was an American citizen.