So, should he be removed?

[hollodero]

There's also this matter, after all.

To oversimplify matters for the poll at least, let's put aside all the different possible articles of impeachment like "bribery/abuse of power" or "obstruction" and make the question straight-forward. All things considered, should Trump be removed from office or not?


---
As for my view, I say remove without delay. I figure it is warranted, after all it seems quite clear and proven to me that Trump ran a bribery scheme to falsely smear an US citizen and political opponent with extorted foreign investigation announcements, in that process toying around with 391 million dollars that were not his to toy around with for personal benefit, putting a strategic partner in actual lethal danger and endangering what is defined as national security. Which is as criminal a plan as it is a moronic one. But I don't know if your constitution acknowledges that term.

And sure, it is maybe something I just happily take if warranted - which I believe it is, I actually put trust in those professors - to get rid of Trump. Of course with the underlying motive that I find his reign actually quite dangerous for the western world. (Also I still think he's a Russian asset and moneylaunderer, but I get that this is quite unproven and hence not that impeachable - as of yet.)

I also would have wished Rosenstein all of luck if he ever were to follow through with his alleged plan to secretly tape Trump in order to gain some 25th amendment arguments. Yeah, that's probably not a true story and it would have been a controversial move to say the least, not quite that healing for the nation. It's just, if there's one thing even more mind-boggling than Trump's blatant lieing, his indecency or his unrestrained, unethical narcissism, it's his ignorance and idiocy. I stand to that 100%, don't even tempt me to expand. Rake the forest floors if you think that man is actually smart.
I mention this because I find it possible that Trump actually believes all that conspiracy nonsense, indeed considers his phone call perfect and that Giuliani just steered this witless twerp into that Ukraine mess, for whatever sinister reason this guy has. In which case Trump still should be impeached, adding excessive dumbness as an article. Which sadly is not a legal term either, probably.

And for all those "it's overturning a vote!" folks, you'd get Mike Pence, someone who also was on the ticket. And who liberals sure do not like. (I'd like him, for he's at least not a moron.)

Also, and I feel I need to stress that, I'm not sorry for being a bit annoyed lately. All those alternate narratives and disingenuous sidestories and fingerpointing at everything liberal at any turn possible and this constant "I proof that you're a hypocrite, no you're a hypocrite, no you, I win, hooray for my side!" partisan nonsense is bugging me. These are not the times (but sadly, they always are).

[BmorePat87]

Using your office to gain an advantage over an electoral rival alone is grounds for removal. Doing it by withholding aid from a foreign government and asking them to publicly help you to gain access to it is even worse.

[GMDino]

Naturally I think so for various reasons such as his degrading of the office.  But Pat told the truth there:  What DJT did (and admits to doing) is an impeachable offense worthy of removal from office.  It's not being a Russian operative int he WH but it goes against what we stand for and what our laws say.

[CKwi88]

No he shouldn't be.

I don't want him to have that distinction. I'd rather he just voted out, preferably in as an embarrassing a landslide (at least popular vote) as possible. I'm sure that once he's in no position of relevance the GOP will distance themselves from him and act like he wasn't a real member of the party and he can just fade into the history books as an embarrassing blemish in US history. He'll tweet enough to remain in the spotlight as long as he can hold onto it, but eventually he'll croaks because of his overindulgence on Big Macs and he can just be a bad memory.

[Dill]

(12-07-2019, 03:25 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: No he shouldn't be.

I don't want him to have that distinction. I'd rather he just voted out, preferably in as an embarrassing a landslide (at least popular vote) as possible. I'm sure that once he's in no position of relevance the GOP will distance themselves from him and act like he wasn't a real member of the party and he can just fade into the history books as an embarrassing blemish in US history. He'll tweet enough to remain in the spotlight as long as he can hold onto it, but eventually he'll croaks because of his overindulgence on Big Macs and he can just be a bad memory.

I agree that once out of office, GOP leaders will distance themselves from him to the degree he loses relevance. I don't think he'd lose it right away, though. Might take a year.

I am skeptical there will be an embarrassing landslide. The Trump base does not care about his violations or feel a twinge of embarrassment/regret for their support that I can discern. They really don't want democratic/constitutional accountability to apply to him, so all the legal arguments, precedents, and evidence aren't going to sway them. "If he is guilty, so what?!? Obama/Biden did it too!"

Meantime, there is real danger he will continue undoing US foreign policy and diplomatic credit abroad, and constitutional balance at home. He will continue to break things, continue the current constitutional crisis, and keep the Fox disinformation machine at the center of national politics--all that damage is not reparable.

[Dill]

(12-07-2019, 05:24 AM)hollodero Wrote: And for all those "it's overturning a vote!" folks, you'd get Mike Pence, someone who also was on the ticket. And who liberals sure do not like. (I'd like him, for he's at least not a moron.)

Also, and I feel I need to stress that, I'm not sorry for being a bit annoyed lately. All those alternate narratives and disingenuous sidestories and fingerpointing at everything liberal at any turn possible and this constant "I proof that you're a hypocrite, no you're a hypocrite, no you, I win, hooray for my side!" partisan nonsense is bugging me. These are not the times (but sadly, they always are).

"Both sides" aren't doing it, are not simple mirror images. And as long as that's the case, it may still be possible to right the ship. Some comfort in that.

None of the GOP candidates--even Pence--would be nearly as bad as Trump. All of them knew how government worked and could have been counted on to understand and respect the need for continuity in foreign policy.  People who say "You'd get Pence" still don't get it.  Trump is a broken personality and scofflaw with no flying experience, who is in the pilot's seat of the airliner of state, firing co pilots and traffic controllers who don't give him advice he wants (he knows better!) and trying his best to keep what goes on in the cockpit a secret. Pence would not ignore the fuel gauge or fire a stewardess for being ugly.

[Bengalzona]

Should he be removed?

Yes. If for nothing else, for the crass and ongoing obstruction and lack of transparency that the admin has participated in during this entire term. If the Senate chooses partisan vote over removal for that, then they neuter themselves and the House. Perhaps there are some who would cheer that. But consider what happens when a person from a party you don't necessarily agree with is voted in as the next POTUS with the same unchecked powers.

Will he be removed?

Probably not. The Senate has become increasingly more partisan during the past couple of decades. They used to be less biased than the House. I no longer believe that is the situation. Nor do I believe that they are capable of doing things that are in the best interest of the nation or even in the best interest of the Senate itself. I suppose that is what happens when you hitch your future to a narcissistic demagogue rather than having faith in the democratic process itself.

[BmorePat87]

The Democratic counsel laid out the offenses pretty clearly yesterday. For any other president, this has bipartisan support.

Congressional Republicans have engaged in a good group effort to completely ignore what Trump did and just bring up Biden and say the process is unfair. They know it's not true, but their base believes it. I saw someone post a meme that said "Biden blackmailed Ukraine with a billion in tax dollars to drop an investigation into his son and Democrats want to impeach President Trump for simply asking if it was true". Misinformation wins out.

[hollodero]

(12-07-2019, 03:25 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: No he shouldn't be.

I don't want him to have that distinction. I'd rather he just voted out, preferably in as an embarrassing a landslide (at least popular vote) as possible.

But what if that does not happen?
I don't know the exact numbers, but his approval seemed to be around 40 in the beginning, and it is around 40 now. After all that went down.
"Surviving" impeachment will be just one more push - to convince folks that want to be convinced that he fell victim to a smear campaign, and for him to further act out.

(12-07-2019, 03:25 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I'm sure that once he's in no position of relevance the GOP will distance themselves from him and act like he wasn't a real member of the party and he can just fade into the history books as an embarrassing blemish in US history.

That I also find hard to imagine. They all, all have chained themselves to him, through every scandal, every outrageous conduct, over years. I know politicians pivot and all that, but turning away after tolerating and defending everything Trump did would have no credibility for anyone. Especially after voting against impeachment.
And that I see as the problem. Letting him fall is no longer an option for all those Grahams.

[hollodero]

(12-10-2019, 10:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The Democratic counsel laid out the offenses pretty clearly yesterday. For any other president, this has bipartisan support.

I think so too. I'd also believe in any criminal court, this would not even be suspenseful. The evidence of the extortion scheme seems overwhelming.
A point understandably never mentioned: Ukraine is not even patient zero. Qatar was. They had to buy a Kushner scyscraper to get out of the diplomatic doghouse they surprisingly had to go in before.
And the whole US seemed to say bleep it to that.

(12-10-2019, 10:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Misinformation wins out.

Yep, it does. That is the scary stuff.

[GMDino]

(12-10-2019, 10:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The Democratic counsel laid out the offenses pretty clearly yesterday. For any other president, this has bipartisan support.

Congressional Republicans have engaged in a good group effort to completely ignore what Trump did and just bring up Biden and say the process is unfair. They know it's not true, but their base believes it. I saw someone post a meme that said "Biden blackmailed Ukraine with a billion in tax dollars to drop an investigation into his son and Democrats want to impeach President Trump for simply asking if it was true". Misinformation wins out.

This was actually said by the GOP yesterday during the hearing.

Whoever it was (I was listening to the audio) was going on that "if we have enough international support we can do whatever we want but the POTUS can't do what he wants to fight corruption" (paraphrasing).

It was stunningly stupid in general if you knew anything about the two situations but even more so coming from an elected official.

The GOP reps were disgraceful yesterday.

[BmorePat87]

(12-10-2019, 10:34 AM)GMDino Wrote: This was actually said by the GOP yesterday during the hearing.

Whoever it was (I was listening to the audio) was going on that "if we have enough international support we can do whatever we want but the POTUS can't do what he wants to fight corruption" (paraphrasing).

It was stunningly stupid in general if you knew anything about the two situations but even more so coming from an elected official.

The GOP reps were disgraceful yesterday.

A Rep asked the Democratic counsel what the difference was between 2017 and 2018 (when Trump gave out the aid) vs 2019. If he was concerned about corruption, why didn't he do this sooner? What changed? The answer: "Joe Biden started running". 

[BmorePat87]

(12-10-2019, 10:28 AM)hollodero Wrote: I think so too. I'd also believe in any criminal court, this would not even be suspenseful. The evidence of the extortion scheme seems overwhelming.
A point understandably never mentioned: Ukraine is not even patient zero. Qatar was. TGhey had to buy a Kushner scyscraper to get out of the diplomatic doghouse they surprisingly had to go in before.
And the whole US seemed to say bleep it to that.



Yep, it does. That is the scary stuff.

They don't care. The President's son in law, with absolutely no experience and with professionals saying do not give him a security clearance, is using whats app to conduct foreign policy while getting foreign government to bail him out of his poor business decisions. 

The GOP statesmen of the latter 20th century would have been appalled. 

[Belsnickel]

(12-10-2019, 10:09 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The Democratic counsel laid out the offenses pretty clearly yesterday. For any other president, this has bipartisan support.

In a country from the time before Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, this would have bipartisan support. This hyperpartisan situation is not because of Trump, Trump is a result of this hyperpartisanship. We've had a couple of decades of partisan "news" aimed at otherizing the opposing side. Let's also be clear that while we can talk about bias in news, this is different. These are not news shows that are providing one side or the other, these are partisan pundits that are masquerading as news and calling Democrats evil. This right-wing extremist stuff has been mainstream for a long time and it has convinced Republican voters that Democrats are not acting in good faith.

[GMDino]

(12-10-2019, 11:11 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: In a country from the time before Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, this would have bipartisan support. This hyperpartisan situation is not because of Trump, Trump is a result of this hyperpartisanship. We've had a couple of decades of partisan "news" aimed at otherizing the opposing side. Let's also be clear that while we can talk about bias in news, this is different. These are not news shows that are providing one side or the other, these are partisan pundits that are masquerading as news and calling Democrats evil. This right-wing extremist stuff has been mainstream for a long time and it has convinced Republican voters that Democrats are not acting in good faith.

And it makes me feel bad that I liked Limbaugh because he was funny.  I didn't realize then what kind of damage he was really doing.

[CJD]

Yep.

[*bfine32*]

The latest I've heard leads me to tend toward YES. If the reports are accurate: He didn't care about the results; he just wanted it to be made public that there was an investigation. I originally gave him the benefit that his desire was to discover corruption (sure for his profit, but I thought he wanted the truth), but it now appears he just wanted a smear.

[BrownAssClown]

Yep, I believe he should be removed, but I don't see it happening. The Republicans in the senate are worried about their own well being rather than doing what's right for the country or following the rule of law and what the Constitution mandates. Like many have said, would they(Republicans) be singing the same song if Trump was a Democrat? Both sides play these political games, but SOME Democrats voted for Clinton's impeachment, it will be interesting to see the final tally of votes in this impeachment. On a side note: Has any impeached President ever ran for re-electon or have been on their parties ticket after being impeached? Clinton was in his 2nd term when he was impeached, we may be in new territory next November.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Careful what you wish for.

If it fails... you could be handing Trump the 2020 election on a silver platter.

[Belsnickel]

(12-10-2019, 02:56 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Careful what you wish for.

If it fails... you could be handing Trump the 2020 election on a silver platter.

There are so many variables to that. There is no way to know for certain whether an impeachment and failure to remove will benefit or hurt Trump in 2020. That all depends on his opponent in the general as well as the message that gets across to independent voters. If the message heard is "Republicans will do anything to enable the party over the country to the point of allowing corruption," then it will hurt Trump and Republicans. If the message that gets across is "the Democrats only care about trying to undo the results of the 2016 election and they are sore losers" then it will benefit Trump.

Trying to say that something will hurt or benefit Trump in the general at this point is some of the most stupid punditry going on right now. Especially because we shouldn't be beholden to the political calculus of party politics. Trump committed high crimes and put his personal interests above those of the country. Being scared to impeach because of how it would look politically is just admitting to the general public that you care more about having power than actually looking after the best interests of the citizenry. Impeachment is a political question, but it shouldn't be a partisan one.