So, should he be removed?

[Au165]

(12-10-2019, 12:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The latest I've heard leads me to tend toward YES. If the reports are accurate: He didn't care about the results; he just wanted it to be made public that there was an investigation. I originally gave him the benefit that his desire was to discover corruption (sure for his profit, but I thought he wanted the truth), but it now appears he just wanted a smear.

...In this moment I think my respect for you has gone to a level I never thought was possible. Good on you.

[Dill]

(12-10-2019, 02:56 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Careful what you wish for.

If it fails... you could be handing Trump the 2020 election on a silver platter.

That would be bad for the country, for sure. 

But one more term may be necessary to make plain to the indifferent what a bad president Trump his, what terrible long-term consequences will follow from his time in office.  I also think it would help to discredit Fox and other sources of disinformation. 

The majority of Trump's base might continue in error, but I think that many people who have heretofore ignored politics on the assumption that elections don't mean much will be shaken out of their complacency and help the rest of us insure that something like this doesn't happen again.

People may become better at vetting information, work harder to be better informed. There may be a will to spend more time and resources on teaching history and politics at the public school level--especially how democracy can go wrong, how to recognize demagoguery, and the warning signs of bad judgment and incompetence, and how construction of "alternative" narratives to gaslight is a goal of 21st-century propaganda.

Of course, none of that may happen; Trump may just go on breaking things while the GOP says he is not, and we'll continue not to fix problems and blame the wrong people because of all the smoke.  And a new generation will just find it all the blatant lying and conspiracy mongering "normal." They'll be genuinely unable to tell whether Trump or the FBI is lying about Ukraine. 

Even if Trump is not impeached and wins in 2020, at least the Dems and the majority of Americans will be on record as having said NO to Trump immorality and incompetence.  Both sides weren't doing it.

[*bfine32*]

(12-10-2019, 02:56 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Careful what you wish for.

If it fails... you could be handing Trump the 2020 election on a silver platter.

Folks who will vote for him simply because of a failed impeachment are the same that would have voted for him regardless. I personally look forward to the facts and hope they lead us to the truth. I hope it reveals corruption regardless of the side of the aisle.

Similarly if Trump is exonerated those that weren't going to vote for him are not.

IMO best case: Dude is removed and we get President Tom Cotton.

[ballsofsteel]

(12-10-2019, 05:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks who will vote for him simply because of a failed impeachment are the same that would have voted for him regardless. I personally look forward to the facts and hope they lead us to the truth. I hope it reveals corruption regardless of the side of the aisle.

Similarly if Trump is exonerated those that weren't going to vote for him are not.

IMO best case: Dude is removed and we get President Tom Cotton.

Exonerated? exonerated by who? The facts are there for everyone to see that he is guilty. The right wing senators not voting for impeachment doesn't exonerate him of anything.

[*bfine32*]

(12-10-2019, 06:31 PM)ballsofsteel Wrote: Exonerated? exonerated by who? The facts are there for everyone to see that he is guilty. The right wing senators not voting for impeachment doesn't exonerate him of anything.

Okey Doke. 

[Dill]

(12-10-2019, 06:31 PM)ballsofsteel Wrote: Exonerated? exonerated by who? The facts are there for everyone to see that he is guilty. The right wing senators not voting for impeachment doesn't exonerate him of anything.

Correct. This isn't like a trial with an impartial jury.

The question is whether enough people think that, guilty or not, he should be allowed to continue in office.  

Trump will say that he has been "acquited" if he is not impeached. He will treat it as a finding of fact.

[hollodero]

(12-10-2019, 02:56 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Careful what you wish for.

If it fails... you could be handing Trump the 2020 election on a silver platter.

Yeah I don't feel an extortion scheme like the aforementioned should be left unpunished out of fear of a possible backlash. 

This is not a standard a lawful society should be based on.