So what’s next?

[Belsnickel]

(06-10-2020, 08:06 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Pretty big news, but NASCAR is banning the Confederate flag at all it's events going forward. Good for them, that flag should have been banned over a century ago. But unfortunately that even though the Northern Union armies won the war, they lost the aftermath to the South.

I'm loving the meltdowns on Facebook about this.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2020, 05:47 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL I'm not sure "unsuitable people tend to die quickly in a combat environment," though they certainly increase the risk for their team members, innocent civilians and everyone around them.

I read a study (sorry I can't find it now, so believe or don't) that showed most people killed during a combat deployment die within the first three months.  Part of this is certainly inexperience and the benefits of gaining experience.  i don't think it's debateable though that another factor in early mortality is unsuitability to the role.  Any guy who's served in combat can tell you about "that guy" that everyone knew wouldn't make it. 

Quote:I understand law enforcement is hard and appreciate your contributions on this topic. While I don't see myself pointing weapons at children, I don't assume that I could keep discipline while people are throwing rocks and spitting on me. Not without a lot of training, anyway. I agree that we can weed out some or many that are unsuited, but not all.  Failure to do that often explains individual cases (e.g., Tamir Rice).

I don't really know anything about the officer who killed Rice.  It may be that there were previous signs that he wasn't cut out for the job, there may not have been.  I was specifically commenting on the behavior of some police during the protests, riots or looting (I make a distinction because not all were present in many/most instances).  As this type of situation is, thankfully, rare you're really not going to be able to weed out some people who end up not being able to deal with that type of situation.  It's far beyond the norm of typical LEO working conditions.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2020, 08:06 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Pretty big news, but NASCAR is banning the Confederate flag at all it's events going forward. Good for them, that flag should have been banned over a century ago. But unfortunately that even though the Northern Union armies won the war, they lost the aftermath to the South.

Despite many folks connotations with NASCAR, they have taken the lead on many issues lately. They were one of the first to return to action and made a huge effort to promote social distancing. They are even running a BLM car tonight and paid tribute to it. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2020, 08:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm loving the meltdowns on Facebook about this.

I used to work Coachella and then Stagecoach.  I did it every year from 2002 to 2015, when I was promoted and couldn't take that kind of time off at once anymore.  I always marveled at the incongruity of people professing to be super patriotic while simultaneously flying the flag of a group that tried to destroy the United States.  I will say this though, the women at Stagecoach were amazing looking.  It almost made me want to listen to that shitty music.  Almost.

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2020, 08:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm loving the meltdowns on Facebook about this.

That's gotta be a blow to them, mostly because once NASCAR bans the confederate flag you've got to be out of options as far as what to threaten to go watch instead.  Is it too late for Vince McMahon to revive the XFL as the only professional sports option for people who love the confederate flag and seeing people forced to stand for the anthem?

(06-10-2020, 09:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I always marveled at the incongruity of people professing to be super patriotic while simultaneously flying the flag of a group that tried to destroy the United States. 

It's even more interesting seeing it in the north where the people who flew that flag did their best to shoot our ancestors and make us fade out of existence ala Back to the Future.  Well, my ancestors weren't here yet...though they did flee facist Italy to come here and yet I root for Italy in the world cup.  If there is an afterlife I'm gonna have some pissed off Italian ghosts after me.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-10-2020, 09:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's even more interesting seeing it in the north where the people who flew that flag did their best to shoot our ancestors and make us fade out of existence ala Back to the Future.  Well, my ancestors weren't here yet...though they did flee facist Italy to come here and yet I root for Italy in the world cup.  If there is an afterlife I'm gonna have some pissed off Italian ghosts after me.

The Mussolini government is not inextricably linked to being Italian.  I realize this is not a popular position right now, but we are not beholden to the sins of our ancestors.  I'm sure your people are fine with you.    

[*Nately120*]

(06-10-2020, 10:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The Mussolini government is not inextricably linked to being Italian.  I realize this is not a popular position right now, but we are not beholden to the sins of our ancestors.  I'm sure your people are fine with you.    

Now I really wish the Euro Cup hadn't been cancelled!

[Dill]

(06-10-2020, 08:58 PM)But iSociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I read a study (sorry I can't find it now, so believe or don't) that showed most people killed during a combat deployment die within the first three months.  Part of this is certainly inexperience and the benefits of gaining experience.  i don't think it's debateable though that another factor in early mortality is unsuitability to the role.  Any guy who's served in combat can tell you about "that guy" that everyone knew wouldn't make it.

That would be an interesting study to look at. The inexperienced guy who gets killed is a common trope in war movies.

Best indicator of risk is probably pay grade, for sure, but that may have more to do with who gets put in harm's way most frequently. My concern and sympathy has always been for suitable soldiers who frequently become "unsuitable" by being used a lot.

If we consider the recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the cause and rate of death varies considerably over time and place.  Statistically frequent causes, like IEDs, suicide bombings and helicopter downing, produce clusters which may have little to do with the experience of the victims.  In 2010, 38 people died on FOB Shank from mortars and rockets randomly dropping onto tents and b-huts, mostly at night. The victims were pretty random, military and civilian. Training played no role in their deaths, so far as I can tell, as it likely would for a rifle squad working the surrounding mountainsides.

I don't find the soldiers in combat zones all that comparable to police on streets, even rioting streets. Partly because soldiers are only lethally deployed against non Americans on foreign soil, and partly because their mission is so different. Both soldiers and police have to recognize different and developing threat levels, and determine appropriate responses; but I think the policeman's job is much harder in this respect, even if it involves less mortal risk. Lethal violence is or should be a last resort for those whose job is to serve and protect the people they are policing. They are never going to call in artillery.

When soldiers are asked to police, they tend not to enjoy it, especially when dealing with foreign populations with foreign customs and language in a war zone. They complain of the much greater risk burden they assume with the policemans' focus on protecting a community.

[Belsnickel]

(06-10-2020, 09:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I used to work Coachella and then Stagecoach.  I did it every year from 2002 to 2015, when I was promoted and couldn't take that kind of time off at once anymore.  I always marveled at the incongruity of people professing to be super patriotic while simultaneously flying the flag of a group that tried to destroy the United States.  I will say this though, the women at Stagecoach were amazing looking.  It almost made me want to listen to that shitty music.  Almost.

I live about 30 minutes from West Virginia and the BSA district which I am a commissioner for includes that neighboring county, so I am often making trips over to work with those units. The number of Southern Crosses I see over there is astonishing. Here is this state that was created solely because they were against the CSA, and I see more of those flags over in that county than in my own.

I'm in an interesting place, though, because my county didn't want to secede and probably would've been in West Virginia if not for the natural boundaries. We also have the Lincoln homestead and cemetery, which is where Abraham Lincoln's father and grandfather were born and raised (and yes, they had slaves). But, following Reconstruction and through the Jim Crow era and the Civil Rights movement, they enjoyed erecting monuments and naming things after Confederates in a romanticizing way to make the black community uncomfortable. Right now there is a discussion about a high school that opened here in 1956 and was named after a Confederate general that happened to die nearby while serving with Stonewall Jackson. If that year doesn't ring a bell, it is right after Brown v. Board of Education that mandated integration of the schools.

[GMDino]

(06-10-2020, 08:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm loving the meltdowns on Facebook about this.

And Twitter.

Lot's of people know their "rights" there.

[GMDino]

This guy always has the good take.   


(NSFW...right at the end)

Nascar wants to ban the CONFEDERATE FLAG??? I DONT THANK SO pic.twitter.com/whISiC5ead

— Brent Terhune (@BrentTerhune) June 11, 2020

 

[Belsnickel]

(06-11-2020, 09:17 AM)GMDino Wrote: This guy always has the good take.   


(NSFW...right at the end)

Nascar wants to ban the CONFEDERATE FLAG??? I DONT THANK SO pic.twitter.com/whISiC5ead

— Brent Terhune (@BrentTerhune) June 11, 2020

 

Sounds like he needs an emotional support beer.

Edit: I responded with that about 20 seconds in, and then he raised one.

I may or may not follow him on Twitter, myself.

[BmorePat87]

I heard that a good way to move forward addressing systemic racism is to attack protestors while defending the Confederacy and then hold a rally for your white supporters on Juneteenth... in Tulsa...

[*Nately120*]

Thank god we live in a country where any single butthurt NFL or NASCAR fan can work hard and make his own billion dollar football or racing league that enforces the rules he wants enforced.

[BengalHawk62]

Here’s some of the comments I’ve seen on Facebook regarding the removal of the Confederate statues.......

‘or they could leave the GD things exactly where they have been forever. This is no different than the Taliban blowing statues of Buddha out of mountainsides because they didn’t like them. Insanity.‘

and.....

‘The idea that attempting to rewrite history makes any sense is more pandering. I can only hope history will accurately portray this troll.‘(referring to Nancy Pelosi)


Im just over here eating popcorn at the butthurt right wingers attempting to defend the Confederate states and their policies.




And this gem should be included too, even if it doesn’t have anything to do with the flags.....

To say I am sick to death of media narratives would be a major understatement. The non-stop barrage of a total lies about a president they hated because he called them out from day-one all proved to be fantasy. A non-stop barrage of daily death tolls used to frighten the masses about a virus that proved to be far less deadly and far more contained to certain demographics than they ever chose to report. And now we are subject to non-stop reports about how lousy our society is because of the death of one person...while a daily slaughter continues in the inner city throughout the country that fails to fit the media narrative.

If you buy into the media, you buy in to non-stop BS.

[Dill]

(06-11-2020, 09:17 AM)GMDino Wrote: This guy always has the good take.   


(NSFW...right at the end)

That's a parody, right?  So hard to tell nowadays.

[Dill]

(06-11-2020, 12:05 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: And this gem should be included too, even if it doesn’t have anything to do with the flags.....

To say I am sick to death of media narratives would be a major understatement. The non-stop barrage of a total lies about a president they hated because he called them out from day-one all proved to be fantasy. A non-stop barrage of daily death tolls used to frighten the masses about a virus that proved to be far less deadly and far more contained to certain demographics than they ever chose to report. And now we are subject to non-stop reports about how lousy our society is because of the death of one person...while a daily slaughter continues in the inner city throughout the country that fails to fit the media narrative.

If you buy into the media, you buy in to non-stop BS.

That's a parody too, right?

LOL "the media narrative"   

"total lies about a president they hated . . . all proved to be a fantasy"

. . . er.  Wait . . . .     . . .  

[Belsnickel]

(06-11-2020, 02:39 PM)Dill Wrote: That's a parody, right?  So hard to tell nowadays.

Yes. He is pretty believable, though, huh?

[BmorePat87]

I was researching the history of confederate statues and found this great quote from a black historian in 1961:

"The Confederate myth that the South loves and seems to be getting the rest of the nation to accept, furnished a psychological barrier to desecration. […] Confederate flags, pageants, songs, and such organizations as the Daughters of the Confederacy and its junior branch, the Children of the Confederacy, pictures and monuments to Confederate heroes - all serve to perpetuate a false image of history and strengthen the old ante-bellum ideals of white supremacy and colored inferiority […]” Dr. L.D. Reddick as reported by AFRO (1961)

[Dill]

(06-14-2020, 06:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I was researching the history of confederate statues and found this great quote from a black historian in 1961:

"The Confederate myth that the South loves and seems to be getting the rest of the nation to accept, furnished a psychological barrier to desecration. […] Confederate flags, pageants, songs, and such organizations as the Daughters of the Confederacy and its junior branch, the Children of the Confederacy, pictures and monuments to Confederate heroes - all serve to perpetuate a false image of history and strengthen the old ante-bellum ideals of white supremacy and colored inferiority […]” Dr. L.D. Reddick as reported by AFRO (1961)

It's our "heritage."