So what’s next?

[Dill]

(06-06-2020, 03:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Nah, I'm just talking about those that assert a way ahead is to replace Trump; instead of focusing on the issue. I've said Trump's walk deseved condemnation so I've said something bad about Trump

2. https://www.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-reporters-falsely-accuse-trump-181407447.html

3. I provided you with a clear example of what you considered me "making shit up". Now you're free to move the goalpost and say "well that's not good enough, but I think we can both clearly see I made nothing up.

4. Without counting do you want to bet Trump's name shows up more than the killer's in this thread.

5. I've never said nothing is Trump's fault. I've said he's no more to blame than Obama. What was that you were saying about making shit up

LOL everyone knows you never said "nothing is Trump's fault." You are always ready to grant that he was impolite or said something you wouldn't.

The problem here is you claimed people are claiming "everything is Trump's fault" when no one is--to deflect attention from specific actions which everyone agrees he actually took, and which are not comparable to anything done by Obama/Hillary/Biden, but which unfit him for managing police violence.

You plant these slanted 'goalposts' unilaterally where you want them and then claim others are moving them? That's just as bad asking oblique questions, claiming they have not been answered, and then commanding others to "look in the mirror" before you announce "I'm done here."

I have made it clear why police/civil rights reform will be hard/impossible with this president pushing back on it from the top down. One cannot seriously "focus on the issue" of police violence and generate workable reforms with Trump in the picture. One cannot seriously "focus on the issue," and in propose workable solutions, with Trump remaining in the picture.

If you disagree, then you should explain why the president responsible for undoing Obama's police reforms, and now responds to protest with an order to "dominate the streets," can be counted on to "focus on the issue"--other than by imagining out loud how Floyd is smiling down from heaven and happy talk about how great things are now.

[GMDino]

(06-06-2020, 12:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't think you need to sell anyone of your views as Trump as a person and POTUS; however, you're kinda proving my point.

I'll say it again: Trump is no more responsible for what happened to George Floyd than Obama was for Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, and others. Folks making it political are not worried about discovering a truth. 

Second point first:  No one has blamed Trump for Floyd's death.  You just keep saying that so you can compare him to Obama.

The only way *I* am making *your* point is if your point is now that Trump said one good thing and then turned around and did the exact opposite for days.  And that he has politicized the entire event.

Certainly gad you are one of his defenders.  

"GTFO"  Indeed.

[samhain]

(06-06-2020, 03:56 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes, and while Obama was actually handling these crises pretty well.


I don't really see a problem here.  An extra 1st round draft pick every year for the Steelers would be ok too.


Good dissection of slanted perspective here. Trump/Obama comparisons follow a similar pattern of freely giving credibility to former's words while denying them the latter's--regardless of their author's behavior.

As for the Constitution-based criticism of Trump's public actions by former generals Trump selected for his own cabinet--that's pretty much cancelled by two Times reporters who slanted a Trump speech anyone could read or hear for himself.

Screw that.  Bengals get 3 first round picks, select the officials for every division game, and ban yellow clothing in the stadium.

IF YOU DISAGREE YOU HAVE A SLANTED PERSPECTIVE AND ARE BEING PAID BY ANTIFA!

[GMDino]

Fortunately we have Barr to...checking notes...spin and try to cover his own ass.

"I said, Get it done. I didn't say, Go do it."
AG Barr seeking to distance himself from broadly condemned move to forcibly remove peaceful protesters near White House @mattzaphttps://t.co/VwBw81uexq

— Carol Leonnig (@CarolLeonnig) June 6, 2020

 


Seriously.  This is an excuse a 3rd grader would make up.


"When I told them to 'get it done" I didn't tell them to 'do it'!" 

[fredtoast]

(06-06-2020, 03:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No you didn't you answered it with an "if". What do you suggest police and secret service do to protesters who fail to leave an area that POTUS is schedule to occupy? You cannot answer: "If he has a magic Carpet he could fly over them". 

I think is very illustrative that you just compared the idea of Trump being supportive of non-violent protestors to Trump having a magic flying carpet.  But I doubt you will get it.

The only way you can claim my answer was not valid is if you admit that Trumps claim he was a friend and supporter of non-violent protestors was 100% a bullshit lie.  Otherwise my answer is completely valid because the "if" actually meant "if Trump is telling the truth".

[Dill]

(06-06-2020, 03:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I didn't bring the jobs quote up Dino and Hollo did. I merely used it to illustrate my point of blaming Trump. He actually said very kind words about Floyd. 
I get not saying: "it's Trump's fault!!!" is going to be met with opposition around here, but it just kinda proves my point. WTS/ I'm done with the subject. I don't expect you or anyone to say "You know what? What is happening really isn't Trump's fault; we should look elsewhere for our answers". And I am not going to say "Race relations will get better without Trump". I was around during Obama and race relations sucked. It was a time of Dylann Roof and guess what: Obama was not to blame.

Well it just kinda proves, again, that you ignore the causal relation between Trump's actions, policies, and the just criticisms these draw. 

You have been offered a perfectly good explanation of why "removing Trump from office would be a positive step toward rebuilding relationships between police and minorities"--an explanation based upon his policies and actions as president, and the kind of supporters those policies have drawn.

Rather than demonstrate that the aforesaid policies were not his, or not conducive to police violence, or why he and his supporters would not continue to block actual reform at the local level, you reduce this factual policy history to a simple claim "it's Trump's fault," and dismiss that as too obviously wrong to deserve a closer look, especially after Trump said some "very kind words" about Floyd (as he will about anyone--Putin, Kim, Erdogan--if there is a momentary advantage).  Whatever happened to "watch what Trump does, not what he says"?
 
The Dylan Roof analogy is rather like the "thugs" analogy--complete disconnect from the context of each president's intent, policies and rhetoric from bad actors who may indeed by orienting their actions according to those policies and rhetoric.

President Obama was not tweeting support for white nationalists, or crafting immigration polices and signing executive orders to their liking. So no, probably no influence there--other than maybe the shock of a black president pushed Roof over the edge. That's why no one blames Obama.

In contrast, president Trump warned police against being TOO GENTLE when making arrests, funneling military equipment to them, removing Obama's "handcuffs" as the president of the Minneapolis police union proclaimed at a Trump rally. Impossible to see how any of that could give Chauvin the impression he could keep his knee on Floyd's neck.

But you would have us "look elsewhere" for answers, because Obama had nothing to do with the Charleston massacre?

[fredtoast]

(06-06-2020, 03:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  
I get not saying: "it's Trump's fault!!!" is going to be met with opposition around here, but it just kinda proves my point.

No.  It does not prove your point in any way.


Sometimes you seem to lack even the most basic understanding of logical argument.

[Dill]

(06-06-2020, 04:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: Second point first:  No one has blamed Trump for Floyd's death.  You just keep saying that so you can compare him to Obama.

The only way *I* am making *your* point is if your point is now that Trump said one good thing and then turned around and did the exact opposite for days.  And that he has politicized the entire event.

This.

[hollodero]

(06-06-2020, 03:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Nah, I'm just talking about those that assert a way ahead is to replace Trump; instead of focusing on the issue. I've said Trump's walk deseved condemnation so I've said something bad about Trump

Indeed exactly as I said. You leave that one "acceptable" Trump critizism open, just to keep appearances. But this is not an honest way to lead the debate.

As said, sure you can disagree, but the way you do that is just obnoxious. For the matter at hand, I find it quite reasonable to believe voting out Trump is a positive step. There are several reasons given, that are not shameful to give. If you think differently, (more or less) fine. If you think differently and call others all kinds of names for not sharing your take, not fine.

(06-06-2020, 03:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 2. https://www.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-reporters-falsely-accuse-trump-181407447.html

I give you that one, you have a fair point here. To me, it still is quite tasteless though, his mentioning Floyd as having a great day because everything is just hunky dory. But disagreement on that point is not the issue.

(06-06-2020, 03:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3. I provided you with a clear example of what you considered me "making shit up". Now you're free to move the goalpost and say "well that's not good enough, but I think we can both clearly see I made nothing up.

Being unsensical (as in using undue inductive conclusions) is making shit up. As would be associating you with something a Breitbart user says, or anyone else I just deem anti-liberal just like you.
In reality, just like all cops are not the same, not all Trump critics are the same and the principle of "show one is wrong once, then you showed all are wrong all the time" does not apply. Not that I even think Nately was wrong in the example you gave, but the principle itself is flawed.

(06-06-2020, 03:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 4. Without counting do you want to bet Trump's name shows up more than the killer's in this thread.

That does not prove anything. Maybe there's not much to say about the killer in addition to what a heineous killer he is. Trump is the person in power though, whose reactions and deeds matter now and matter most now. How often he comes up proves nothing about malicious intent from Trump critics.
If he were to give the cop a medal of honor and called him an american hero, his name would come up even more and it would not prove that he is unfairly treated. Your point is flawed.

(06-06-2020, 03:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 5. I've never said nothing is Trump's fault. I've said he's no more to blame than Obama. What was that you were saying about making shit up

You relentlessly attack all those that have a different take though. You call them akin to looters and shameful and whatnot. I have no problem with your take (though I vigorously disagree in that instance), but the way you express it is horrible.

As for said disagreement, I think president Obama would handle the situation way more gracefully, inclusive and in a way more healing and unifying matter. Just my take. (Dill expanded on that way more eloquently then I ever could.)

[GMDino]

Hope.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tennessee-national-guardsmen-put-down-their-shields-during-peaceful-rally-at-state-capitol/ar-BB14TNMs?fbclid=IwAR3G8n3OBF1kKBwWaAIpWXcnxng6fg-IWA8_FnlV9iW1vJBd4mVZ7H-duvw


Tennessee National Guardsmen put down their shields during peaceful rally at state capitol
4 days ago
[/url]

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---

Why the Golden Gate Bridge made strange noises

Teens continue to protest despite being hit by rubber bullets, tear gas

Quote:Tennessee National Guardsmen put down their shields during peaceful rally at state capitol

[url=https://twitter.com/share?url=http%3a%2f%2fa.msn.com%2f01%2fen-us%2fBB14TNMs%3focid%3dst&text=Tennessee+National+Guardsmen+put+down+their+shields+during+peaceful+rally+at+state+capitol&original_referer=http%3a%2f%2fa.msn.com%2f01%2fen-us%2fBB14TNMs%3focid%3dst][/url]
[url=https://web.whatsapp.com/send?text=http%3a%2f%2fa.msn.com%2f01%2fen-us%2fBB14TNMs%3focid%3dsw]

NASHVILLE, TN (WSMV) - A peaceful vigil took place in Nashville on Monday night.
Provided by WSMV Nashville
In a powerful moment, The Tennessee National Guard laid down their shields at a protest that has made its way up the steps of the Tennessee Capitol.

Dozens of protesters gathered at Legislative Plaza around 6 p.m. for the Vigil for Black Lives.

Nashville, TN pic.twitter.com/7F7gaZo1Fo— Rebecca Cardenas (@RebeccaWSMV) June 2, 2020

After gathering in the plaza, the crowd then proceeded to the Tennessee State Capitol, where some legislators joined the group.

In a powerful moment, the Tennessee National Guard laid down their shields at the invitation of community activist Justin Jones.

"We want to invite these law enforcement, these troopers to lay down your swords and shields and join us," Jones said. The guards, who were standing in a line in front of the capitol, put their shields on the ground as the crowd cheered.

[fredtoast]

Sorry I have not been here for the entire thread.

Could some one post a link to the claim that Trump was to blame for the murder of Michael Floyd. Bfine keeps talking about it over and over again, but I have not seen anyone make that claim.

And he insists that he doesn't just make shit up so I know there must be a post somewhere here about it.

[Benton]

(06-06-2020, 10:04 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I brought up Obama's words about Trayvon Martin in response to this:

 "Obama didn't actively try to paint the problem as all 'the other guy,"

Obama's thoughts about what "his" son would look like clearly did that

But if you think we should discuss the entirety of the message let's look at what Trump said at the launching of Space X. He took attention away from a hom a huge event that he knew would be viewed nationally to draw attention to the matter:

Makes sense. It IS all Obama's fault.

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2020, 08:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry I have not been here for the entire thread.

Could some one post a link to the claim that Trump was to blame for the murder of Michael Floyd. Bfine keeps talking about it over and over again, but I have not seen anyone make that claim.

And he insists that he doesn't just make shit up so I know there must be a post somewhere here about it.

My favorite was that Trump's name was brought up more than Chauvin's. Well, duh. This thread is about what happens next, not about the Floyd murder itself.

[GMDino]

(06-06-2020, 08:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: My favorite was that Trump's name was brought up more than Chauvin's. Well, duh. This thread is about what happens next, not about the Floyd murder itself.

Well speaking of Chauvin...why is it every time there IS a single case of voter fraud it's a republican doing it?

https://www.newsweek.com/derek-chauvin-accused-fraudulently-voting-florida-despite-living-minnesota-1509109

Quote:Derek Chauvin, the 44-year-old Minnesota police officer charged with second-degree murder and manslaughter for his role in the May 25 death of George Floyd, voted illegally in Florida in 2016 and 2018, according to a Florida attorney.

Florida attorney, Dan Helm, who is a candidate for Pinellas County Supervisor of Elections, has requested that Orange County State Attorney Aramis Ayala prosecute Chauvin for violating the state's election laws, a third-degree felony, according to The Star Tribune.

Chauvin has property in Florida and allegedly continued to vote in state elections while living in Minnesota.

[*bfine32*]

(06-06-2020, 08:29 PM)Benton Wrote: Makes sense. It IS all Obama's fault.

Of course my point was it is neither's fault, but that probably sounded awesome to you as you were typing it. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-06-2020, 08:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry I have not been here for the entire thread.

Could some one post a link to the claim that Trump was to blame for the murder of Michael Floyd.  Bfine keeps talking about it over and over again, but I have not seen anyone make that claim.

And he insists that he doesn't just make shit up so I know there must be a post somewhere here about it.

First off: Yes you have, you posted early on the first page in this thread. So you made that shit up

Secondly Michael Floyd was an mediocre WR from Notre Dame that hasn't been murdered

Finally, bfine has disputed that the "way ahead" to fix the issue should include voting Donald Trump out of office. 

[Belsnickel]

(06-03-2020, 01:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The BLM movement will not accomplish their goal because they don't have a specific goal. You can no more end racism and police brutality by rioting than you can end child abuse by rioting. They have to come up with some specific policy or law to rally support behind. MLK Jr had The Civil rights Act and the Voters Rights Act. Th Suffragettes had the 19th Amendment. Until BLM can come up with a specific goal they are just wasting their time.

I had the same problem with Kaepernick a few years ago. He created a huge platform for his message, but he never came up with a message. he could never say exactly what had to happen before he would stop kneeling. So it went nowhere.

All I see is a lot of finger pointing and allegations of "remaining silent" or "not listening". From my experience an overwhelming majority of white people oppose racism and police brutality, and they would gladly support some law or policy to help address the problem. But they just don't have a goal or a message to get behind. The Civil Rights Act was not a reform forced on white people by the courts. It was a law supported by a majority of citizens.

I think the clear goal would be for every state to have a Prosecuting Attorney completely independent from all local law enforcement agencies to investigate and prosecute every allegation of police brutality or misconduct. I don't see why an overwhelming majority of all citizens would not support and speak ou n support of this.

Revisiting this to share something that has come up, recently: https://8cantwait.org/

[*bfine32*]

(06-06-2020, 08:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: My favorite was that Trump's name was brought up more than Chauvin's. Well, duh. This thread is about what happens next, not about the Floyd murder itself.

Yeah, the thread is about a way ahead. Folks are more focused on replacing folks like Trump that psychos like Chauvin. But I'm glad I could provide you with your favorite. 

[Benton]

(06-06-2020, 09:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course my point was it is neither's fault, but that probably sounded awesome to you as you were typing it. 

If your point was "it's not Trump's  fault" then say "it's not Trump's fault."

Your point comes across as 'trump really isn't any worse than obama'.

And that second attitude is largely where we're at. 

[Dill]

(06-06-2020, 09:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Finally, bfine has disputed that the "way ahead" to fix the issue should include voting Donald Trump out of office. 

But Bfine has not explained why that fix wouldn't make sense,

given Trump is the president who promised to roll back Obama's police reforms-- and delivered. 

Look "elsewhere" for answers indeed.

Bfine insists that if Obama, who did not encourage white supremacy, had nothing to do with the Charleston massacre,

then it follows that Trump, who encouraged police brutality, could have nothing to do with--police brutality.

Saying "neither's fault" implies both are equally innocent, or guilty, of inciting violence.  They are not.

And claiming they are cuz "that's fair" and Trump said some nice things about Floyd before he ordered the US military against peaceful citizens just undermines any serious attempt to examine the relation between policy and political rhetoric, and the willingness of some policemen to go too far with blessing of the highest authority. 

Blaming Trump for what he actually does is blaming Trump for everything?