So... who wrote the NYT op-ed?

[hollodero]

(09-10-2018, 04:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think it is an especially precarious situation when a former president does it. The norm we're talking about isn't just a matter of stability. The reason this norm was established throughout the years is because it is important to the peaceful transition of power. The reason a president removes themselves from public life, for the most part, once they leave office is because of that transition. I know I can often take these sorts of things into an extreme example, but this is why it happens, to keep those extremes from occurring. We get comfortable with things not happening because of these norms, not thinking about them, and then we end up going down a path we oughtn't.

Washington retired to Mt. Vernon after his two terms because he knew that staying in the public eye could cause a conflict of leadership. Sure, it's not as extreme as the whole two popes situation we had, but it's a similar thing. Obama violating that norm can create this sort of conflict, especially when there is currently no individual on the left that really stands out as the leader for 2020.

Maybe I think about political/democratic theory too much with these things, but I just see the cracks in the walls of the house that is our democracy widening before our eyes.

But doesn't a norm require some kind of surrounding normality? I don't think norms are meant to be principles to be upheld no matter what. How bad do things need to be that a former president can speak up without objections? There has to be a certain point somewhere, a certain amount of malpractice that makes speaking up ok, right.

If Obama feels that point is reached, I think he should do or say about it whatever he sees fit. And as I said: I feel when this much grim insider information about a presidency is available and there's a legit reason to believe those are not all faked and forged, then maybe there's a certain danger looming or it's at least not unreasonable to see it that way. And then maybe the phrase "bad things happen if good people do nothing because norms forbid it" applies and it might be a former president's duty to not rest in silence.

[6andcounting]

John McCain or Trump. Anything else would not live up to the hype that is the current state of US politics.

[fredtoast]

The Trump/Obama dynamic is different from previous ex/current Presidents.

Trump was the head of a smear campaign who accused Obama of being a fraud born in Kenya.  So how many "former" presidents had to deal with a "current" President who had made such salacious personal attacks against him?  Not criticism of policy, but actual slanderous lies regarding his personal life?

Of course if Trump murdered someone the Trump supporters here would claim that Obama should not be allowed to criticize him because that would be "going low'

[fredtoast]

(09-10-2018, 06:49 PM)hollodero Wrote: But doesn't a norm require some kind of surrounding normality? I don't think norms are meant to be principles to be upheld no matter what. How bad do things need to be that a former president can speak up without objections? There has to be a certain point somewhere, a certain amount of malpractice that makes speaking up ok, right.

Nope.  Not according to Trump fans.  It is Like the Donald himself said.  "I could shoot a man in the middle of the street and my followers would not care".

[*bfine32*]

(09-10-2018, 07:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Trump/Obama dynamic is different from previous ex/current Presidents.

Trump was the head of a smear campaign who accused Obama of being a fraud born in Kenya.  So hoe many "former" presidents had o deal with a "current" President who had mad such salacious personal attacks against him.  Not criticism of policy, but actual slanderous lies regarding his personal life?

Of course if Trump murdered someone the Trump supporters here would claim that Obama should not be allowed to criticize him because that would be "going low'

Yep, sure does look like some are trying hard to excuse Trump here.

Imagine my shock that you and Dino see a matter (and pretty much the only ones) the same

[fredtoast]

(09-10-2018, 07:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep, sure does look like some are trying hard to excuse Trump here.

Imagine my shock that you and Dino see a matter (and pretty much the only ones) the same

I was not trying to excuse Trump.

What do you mean?

And why should you be surprised that some people see things from similar points of view.  I can always tell pretty much exactly who agrees with you.  So what is your point exactly?

[*bfine32*]

(09-10-2018, 07:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was not trying to excuse Trump.

What do you mean?

And why should you be surprised that some people see things from similar points of view.  I can always tell pretty much exactly who agrees with you.  So what is your point exactly?

You are correct. The post was poorly worded and uncalled for.

[Vlad]

Why are you all so sensitive over Trump's "not having tact" or "not acting presidential" , or so-called "bad behavior"?
What has he hurt other than your feelings?

It's all about demonizing Republicans.
The vitriol for Trump is the same as it was for Romney, the same as it was for McCain...except with Trump you found yourselves a reason...the way he talks hurts your feelings.

[Vlad]

(09-10-2018, 07:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Trump/Obama dynamic is different from previous ex/current Presidents.

Trump was the head of a smear campaign who accused Obama of being a fraud born in Kenya.  So hoe many "former" presidents had o deal with a "current" President who had mad such salacious personal attacks against him.  Not criticism of policy, but actual slanderous lies regarding his personal life?

Of course if Trump murdered someone the Trump supporters here would claim that Obama should not be allowed to criticize him because that would be "going low'

That's a bit disingenuous.

Trump "led smear campaign?" How about "searching for the truth campaign"?

To smear is to discredit someone by simply making false accusations , lies, half truths, etc...

The charge that Obama was Kenyan surfaced as far back as 2004, then soon after supposedly by Hillary. Taken up by Trump, a private citizen sought out to prove it by hiring investigators. He later acknowledged that Obama was an American citizen.

The irony that you mention "smear campaign" as you Trump haters are actively in the middle of one. It is leftists and the msm that are leading the largest political smear campaign ever in our history, against this duly elected president..

[*bfine32*]

(09-10-2018, 10:45 PM)Vlad Wrote: That's a bit disingenuous.

Trump "led smear campaign?" How about "searching for the truth campaign"?

To smear is to discredit someone by simply making false accusations , lies, half truths, etc...

The charge that Obama was Kenyan surfaced as far back as 2004, then soon after supposedly by Hillary. Taken up by Trump, a private citizen sought out to prove it by hiring investigators. He later acknowledged that Obama was an American citizen.

The irony that you mention "smear campaign" as you Trump haters are actively in the middle of one. It is leftists and the msm that are leading the largest political smear campaign ever in our history, against this duly elected president..

There is little doubt that Hills ran her 2008 campaign based on the notion that Obama was "unamerican". But the convenient scapegoat is Trump.

Politicians have been ugly to each other throughout the history of Politics but Obama has set precedent with criticizing his replacement both personally and on issue. But it's not unlike him.

I will never forget how gracious Bush was when Pelosi was named speaker in his first SOTU after the Dems took the house and how petty Obama was when the GOP took it back.

[GMDino]

(09-10-2018, 06:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I had no idea that Matt and Benton were Trump supporters or maybe, just maybe they're seeing this rationally.

Hopefully, if Trump leaves office and does the same rational folks will call him out as well.

I'm sure you'll be fine with it.

I already said I'd be fine with him staying in the public eye.  Which, barring any mental incapacitation, he will always do.

[GMDino]

(09-10-2018, 10:45 PM)Vlad Wrote: That's a bit disingenuous.

Trump "led smear campaign?" How about "searching for the truth campaign"?

To smear is to discredit someone by simply making false accusations , lies, half truths, etc...

The charge that Obama was Kenyan surfaced as far back as 2004, then soon after supposedly by Hillary. Taken up by Trump, a private citizen sought out to prove it by hiring investigators. He later acknowledged that Obama was an American citizen.

The irony that you mention "smear campaign" as you Trump haters are actively in the middle of one. It is leftists and the msm that are leading the largest political smear campaign ever in our history, against this duly elected president..

[GMDino]

(09-10-2018, 10:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There is little doubt that Hills ran her 2008 campaign based on the notion that Obama was "unamerican". But the convenient scapegoat is Trump.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/sep/16/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

Quote:Donald Trump repeated his debunked claim that Hillary Clinton started the rumors questioning whether President Barack Obama was born in the United States.


"Hillary Clinton and her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy," Trump said in a 30-minute press conference Sept. 16, 2016. "I finished it."

The birther issue reemerged when the Washington Post asked Trump a day earlier if he believes Obama was born in the United States. He refused to answer.

"I’ll answer the question at the right time," Trump said Sept. 15. "I just don’t want to answer it yet."

This prompted a flurry of incredulity over his revitalization of the "birther" issue, which in turn prompted his campaign to answer the question for him and also accuse Clinton of starting it in the first place.

Trump has repeatedly claimed that Clinton began the whole issue in the first place. Trump said "Hillary is a birther" in February 2015 at CPAC, tweeted that "she was all in" in September 2015, and said "she brought it up years before it was brought up by me" on CNN in May 2016. The morning of his press conference, Trump brought it up again on Fox Business.

PolitiFact and our friends at FactCheck.org and the Washington Post Fact-Checker have debunked this zombie claim multiple times.

There is no evidence that Clinton or her 2008 campaign ever floated the theory. While Clinton supporters circulated the allegations the last time she ran for president, they had no ties to either the candidate or her staff.

A damning memo?
The Sept. 15 Trump campaign statement linked to a 2007 strategy memo published in the Atlantic from former Clinton aide Mark Penn that advises pointing out Obama’s "lack of American roots."  

While Penn suggests Clinton "own ‘American’ in our programs," that’s not the same thing as suggesting Clinton question Obama’s citizenship or birthplace. The memo never advises that.

It also explicitly states, "We are never going to say anything about his background."

Furthermore, as the Atlantic and Politico reported in 2008, neither Clinton nor her campaign acted on Penn’s advice.

A not-damning chain email
The other piece of "evidence" linking Clinton to birtherism are emails circulated by supporters of Clinton during the last days of the 2008 Democratic primary after Clinton suspended her campaign.

According to a Telegraph article, Clinton supporters circulated the "birther" theory in an email as early as April 2008.

"Barack Obama’s mother was living in Kenya with his Arab-African father late in her pregnancy," the email said, according to the Telegraph. "She was not allowed to travel by plane then, so Barack Obama was born there and his mother then took him to Hawaii to register his birth."

The allegations gained momentum that month. Clinton conceded the race on June 7, and three days later a website called Pumaparty.com (an acroynom for Party Unity My A--) encouraged Clinton backers to support Republican nominee Sen. John McCain.

The website promoted the theory with an email that read, "Obama May Be Illegal to Be Elected President," as Daily Beast editor John Avlon has documented.

According to Avlon, Linda Starr, a Clinton volunteer in Texas, was key to spreading the rumor. She connected with with
Philip Berger, an attorney and Clinton supporter, who sued to block Obama’s nomination. The suit was thrown out.

But this is not the same thing as Clinton or her campaign promoting the theory. There is no evidence that they ever have done so. Clinton has dismissed the allegation when Trump made his accusation last September in an interview with CNN’s Don Lemon.

"That is — no. That is so ludicrous, Don. You know, honestly, I just believe that, first of all, it’s totally untrue, and secondly, you know, the president and I have never had any kind of confrontation like that," Clinton said. "You know, I have been blamed for nearly everything, that was a new one to me."

(Another thing to note: Clinton volunteers forwarded emails promoting the myth that Obama is a Muslim. As we have previously reported, both resigned from the campaign after they were found to have spread the rumor. The Clinton campaign condemned their actions and said it was unauthorized.)

Our ruling

Trump said, "Hillary Clinton and her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy."

There is no evidence to support this. Clinton supporters circulated the rumor in the last days of the 2008 Democratic primary and after Clinton had conceded to Obama. But the record does not show Clinton or her campaign ever promoting the birther theory, let alone starting it.

We rate Trump’s claim False.

"little doubt"

(09-10-2018, 10:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Politicians have been ugly to each other throughout the history of Politics but Obama has set precedent with criticizing his replacement both personally and on issue. But it's not unlike him.

I will never forget how gracious Bush was when Pelosi was named speaker in his first SOTU after the Dems took the house and how petty Obama was when the GOP took it back.

Opinion. Not facts.

Trump supporters just can't let nim be blamed for anything or admit it did anything wrong.

[*bfine32*]

(09-10-2018, 11:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: I already said I'd be fine with him staying in the public eye.  Which, barring any mental incapacitation, he will always do.

Well then we differ as usual. If he slurs his replacement, then I will consider it below the office; just as I consider many things he does now and what Obama is currently doing.

[*bfine32*]

(09-10-2018, 11:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: Opinion.  Not facts.

Trump supporters just can't let nim be blamed for anything or admit it did anything wrong.

You do realize that Trump was never mentioned in the post you quoted?

But that aside. Bush was magnanimous in his acknowledgement of Pelosi and Obama was petty with "I won".

Trump has done plenty wrong and for many things he deserves blame.

[GMDino]

(09-10-2018, 11:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well then we differ as usual. If he slurs his replacement, then I will consider it below the office; just as I consider many things he does now and what Obama is currently doing.

Oh bologna.

You throw a cursiary "he shouldn't say that" once in a while to appear unbiased...you don't care one bit and the rest of your posts show it.

[*bfine32*]

(09-11-2018, 12:11 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh bologna.

You throw a cursiary "he shouldn't say that" once in a while to appear unbiased...you don't care one bit and the rest of your posts show it.

OK

[*bfine32*]

For those that forgot or never experienced what civility looks like:

https://youtu.be/JdqqG2Di2Vo

[Benton]

(09-10-2018, 09:30 PM)Vlad Wrote: What has he hurt other than your feelings?

International relations, domestic relations, relations with congress, relations with the judicial branch, relations with farmers, relations with contiguous countries, relations with ... well... heck... everyone?

Really, is there anyone outside of white supremacists and Bible thumpers that Trump hasn't tried to offend?

[Benton]

(09-10-2018, 10:45 PM)Vlad Wrote: That's a bit disingenuous.

Trump "led smear campaign?" How about "searching for the truth campaign"?

To smear is to discredit someone by simply making false accusations , lies, half truths, etc...

The charge that Obama was Kenyan surfaced as far back as 2004, then soon after supposedly by Hillary. Taken up by Trump, a private citizen sought out to prove it by hiring investigators. He later acknowledged that Obama was an American citizen.

The irony that you mention "smear campaign" as you Trump haters are actively in the middle of one. It is leftists and the msm that are leading the largest political smear campaign ever in our history, against this duly elected president..

Well, heck no.

Allegedly, Andy Martin started the birther rumors. Trump — in his continued fear of Clinton — cited her as the source. Which is pretty crazy. Trump jumped on board with the fervent tenacity of a starving crackhead outside a Western Sizzlin'.

Clinton may have pushed money to it. Hell, she probably did. But to try and paint Trump as innocent is absurd. Every time Fox News interviewed the guy he asked for a birth certificate.