Is "radical" good or bad.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-06-2019, 11:10 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Well, I think they want a degree in something that interests them. And then when they graduate, they realize there are no jobs for that degree and now are just applying for jobs they think they can do and hope they can impress in the interview.

It's a lot to ask 17 year olds to make a commitment to a certain degree that will affect the rest of their lives.

As far as comparing a college graduate to a person that has supported themselves since 18, all I can say is that getting a college degree is still difficult. It takes discipline and intelligence. The amount of which is heavily dependent on the degree, of course. You also learn to use tools like Excel, Word and give presentations and develop a variety of skills that a lot of companies value just through getting that degree. The self sufficient person may be really good at budgeting and values hard work, but they may not have the baseline tools needed to work in an office setting. This is a generalization, of course. Non-college educated people can obviously learn those things. But if I've learned anything through my career, it's that companies are not a fan of actually having to teach their employees how to do things. They want the fully finished product at hiring.

Also, the stereotype of partying for four years never really identified with me, personally. Granted, I was an engineer, so that may mean my degree was "harder" than, say, a business or communications degree.

Yes an engineering student is a whole different thing.  And there are other majors.  My nephew went into computer engineering, and I didn't even understand the title of his classes.  

[GMDino]

(06-06-2019, 11:17 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes an engineering student is a whole different thing.  And there are other majors.  My nephew went into computer engineering, and I didn't even understand the title of his classes.  

Our daughter did the Career Center route.  Our son, who graduates next year, is going for electrical engineering in college.

She wasn't involved in high school groups...he is so he didn't want to go to the Career center.

Everyone has to follow their own path.

College is NOT for everyone.  It was for me, though 30 years later I use my major in a much different manner than I studied to use it for.

I believe everyone should have the option  though.  Some need to go to figure out they don't need/want to be there.  But it shouldn't financially cripple everyone just to go to school either.

[Dill]

(06-06-2019, 12:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: Our daughter did the Career Center route.  Our son, who graduates next year, is going for electrical engineering in college.

She wasn't involved in high school groups...he is so he didn't want to go to the Career center.

Everyone has to follow their own path.

College is NOT for everyone.  It was for me, though 30 years later I use my major in a much different manner than I studied to use it for.

I believe everyone should have the option  though.  Some need to go to figure out they don't need/want to be there.  But it shouldn't financially cripple everyone just to go to school either.

Which college?

[Dill]

Hey y'all, is it possible that the purpose of a college degree--or "liberal" education at least--can be a bit more than job training?

Whether one is going to use what one learns "on the job" or not should not be the only standard by which college degrees are judged useful, in my view.

There used to be a distinction between training and education: the former was for your boss, the latter was for you.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-06-2019, 06:11 PM)Dill Wrote: Hey y'all, is it possible that the purpose of a college degree--or "liberal" education at least--can be a bit more than job training?

Whether one is going to use what one learns "on the job" or not should not be the only standard by which college degrees are judged useful, in my view.

There used to be a distinction between training and education: the former was for your boss, the latter was for you.

Nothing wrong with knowledge for the sake of knowledge, but most people don’t have that kind of money to throw around in pursuit of enrichment.

[Dill]

(06-06-2019, 07:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Nothing wrong with knowledge for the sake of knowledge, but most people don’t have that kind of money to throw around in pursuit of enrichment.

I think you might have put your finger on an important (from my perspective) problem--people view that "surplus" knowledge as as added expense, having no broader horizon of applicability than personal interest/recreation, and so running a poor second to training that pays the bills.

I regard "enrichment" as more a public than a private good in any liberal democracy. If that were not the case, our illiberal friends on the right would not be taking so much trouble to demonize universities and push STEM training over "useless" humanities education--the kind that provides students with background and depth of civic knowledge for assessing current political issues.

Granted, from an employer's perspective, critical thinking and research skills may not be a plus for many jobs. But some do require that, especially higher paying ones. That's why our corporate employers, with no interest whatsoever in Aristotle or Chaucer, are so genuinely happy to see applicants with BAs in Philosophy and English.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2015/07/29/liberal-arts-degree-tech/#3367d41745d2

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-to-do-with-a-ba-in-e_b_4204376

https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/best-schools-by-majors/humanities

[GMDino]

(06-06-2019, 06:01 PM)Dill Wrote: Which college?

Penn State.

[Dill]

(06-06-2019, 09:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: Penn State.

Well, you can stop by for a visit on your way to PSU then.

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2019, 07:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Nothing wrong with knowledge for the sake of knowledge, but most people don’t have that kind of money to throw around in pursuit of enrichment.

Indeed, most people don't. Mostly this is because the cost of higher education has increased at a rate far exceeding that of wages and inflation. All of this is occurring in tandem with a reduction in investment in these institutions, specifically for public higher ed.

I would, however, argue that "knowledge for the sake of knowledge" is not at all an accurate description of what one receives from a liberal arts education. A liberal arts education utilizing a comprehensive general education experience is intended to help someone develop logic and critical thinking skills to improve their abilities as they move on to taking classes in their majors, as well as helping someone grow life skills that will be important to them in years to come. It is intended to ensure a graduate of an institution completes their program with a well-rounded education and is a well-rounded person.

For example, here are the stated goals of our general education program:

Quote:Students understand the historical and contemporary distinctions and interconnections among people, institutions, and communities that create, preserve, and transmit culture and knowledge in the arts, sciences, mathematics, social sciences, and humanities.

Students become skilled in questioning, investigating, analyzing, evaluating, and communicating.

Students participate in a variety of aesthetic and civic experiences reflecting human concerns and values that transcend the limits of specialization.

Is this always achieved? Most likely not. Many students have the same sort of attitudes that we see present in society that don't understand the intention of these classes. They see them as pointless. As someone that attended a straight up business school for my accounting degree and did not get the same sort of experience but is now taking these classes for a policy degree, I can see how valuable they are.

I have 12-15 years on the students in most of these classes. A lot of what I see in these general education classes are important lessons that I have learned in those years. Lessons I wish I had back when I first started out. I used to think the same way about a liberal arts education as those skeptical of it, but based upon my experiences and based upon what employers actually state they are looking for (which, by the way, are the skills learned primarily in those gen ed classes) it is an important thing and not just "knowledge for the sake of knowledge."

All of that being said, I am also not someone that says everyone needs college. I had just such a conversation with a young man a couple of weeks ago. We just need to rethink how we understand the role of the liberal arts education in our society because right now it is definitely undervalued by those that don't understand it or the data supporting its importance.