St. Louis couple point guns at protesters

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-15-2020, 12:43 AM)BrownAssClown Wrote: I don't know if the videos were unedited or not. You can call me anything you want, just don't call me late to supper.

I would not put it against the media to edit the videos in a way that it would make the home owners the aggressors. Not that it's true, but both sides like to show things in the light that best fits their narrative. 

[BmorePat87]

(07-15-2020, 12:31 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Well I don't actually look at the research and statistics, but I've been told blacks also commit disproportionately the number of crimes that would put them in a situation to potentially get shot.

That was actually addressed by researchers. They found no correlation between violent crime rates and police killing rates. Also, Black people were 3 times more likely to be shot in cases where they were considered low or no risk. 13% of black people shot by cops were unarmed compared to 7% of white people shot by police. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2020, 12:45 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Hey now. Cops have to get physically tazed by their own taser that was stolen from them before they are allowed to defend themselves these days. Those home owners should have waited until the crowd started beating them before doing anything.

As I said: a couple months back I could care less who won POTUS between Trump and Biden. But if Biden and those that support his agenda will at best, remain silent. and at worse blame the victims  in cases such as these, then I'm starting to get energized. 

I may become what I've been accused of the last 4 years: A Trump supporter. Where's my hat?

[BrownAssClown]

(07-15-2020, 12:42 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It's reported the couple did call the police and even informed them that they (the couple) were armed. IMO they were not "playing" the victim, they were victims. They should not be required for it to "turn violent" before making themselves a hard target. 

I guess you would have been fine if the couple would have exited their house "Guns A-blazing" then? I think we should just let the great state of Missouri settle this as I think we have beat this topic to death. Let's get this thread back on track, wait, what was this thread about again? Oh, BLM.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-15-2020, 12:49 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That was actually addressed by researchers. They found no correlation between violent crime rates and police killing rates. Also, Black people were 3 times more likely to be shot in cases where they were considered low or no risk. 13% of black people shot by cops were unarmed compared to 7% of white people shot by police. 

Follow up, what were these 13% unarmed doing when shot? Nothing? Running? Attacking? I'm assuming unarmed also means no weapon at all not a brick/bat or anything like that.

If you run at the police with the intent to attack or take a weapon from them then you should probably expect to get shot.

Not saying that was the case in these 13% but I'm curious.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-15-2020, 12:52 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said: a couple months back I could care less who won POTUS between Trump and Biden. But if Biden and those that support his agenda will at best, remain silent. and at worse blame the victims  in cases such as these, then I'm starting to get energized. 

I may become what I've been accused of the last 4 years: A Trump supporter. Where's my hat?

Well I voted for Ben Carson in the primaries. I thought he was the most likable candidate at the time. None of my primary votes have ever won though

[BmorePat87]

(07-15-2020, 12:54 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Follow up, what were these 13% unarmed doing when shot? Nothing? Running? Attacking? I'm assuming unarmed also means no weapon at all not a brick/bat or anything like that.

If you run at the police with the intent to attack or take a weapon from them then you should probably expect to get shot.

Not saying that was the case in these 13% but I'm curious.

All good questions. One common trend is that reporting these statistics by local police departments is really bad. A lot of times they had to use media reporting to supplement it. 

Definitely should be one of the reforms being pushed. 

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-15-2020, 12:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: All good questions. One common trend is that reporting these statistics by local police departments is really bad. A lot of times they had to use media reporting to supplement it. 

Definitely should be one of the reforms being pushed. 

If the majority of these cases happened to be say attacking the police unarmed then the statistic wouldn't mean much to me in the fact of being unarmed. Other than looking into less deadly ways to restrain unarmed assailants. But honestly if you're attacking a policeman then I'm not going to feel bad for you getting shot.

There are certainly cases of just being a bad evil cop. Then there's more of just bad cops in bad situations that made stupid decisions in the heat of the moment. I'm talking more in the line of well the cop could have done this and it would have turned out better. Not restrained suspects ending up dead because of evil people.

Of course these are all assumptions as we don't have any actual data. Or at least none on hand.

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2020, 12:52 AM)BrownAssClown Wrote: I guess you would have been fine if the couple would have exited their house "Guns A-blazing" then? I think we should just let the great state of Missouri settle this as I think we have beat this topic to death. Let's get this thread back on track, wait, what was this thread about again? Oh, BLM.

Not ok with 'guns-a-Blazng" unless fired upon, But OK with what they did as it's been reported.

The OP titled it BLM but never talked about it. So we should probably preform a mercy killing on this thread. 

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-15-2020, 01:05 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Not ok with 'guns-a-Blazng" unless fired upon, But OK with what they did as it's been reported.

The OP titled it BLM but never talked about it. So we should probably preform a mercy killing on this thread. 

Wasn't the protest in question a Black Lives Matter protest though? So still relevant if loaded.

[BmorePat87]

(07-15-2020, 01:07 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Wasn't the protest in question a Black Lives Matter protest though? So still relevant if loaded.

Yes it was. I also pointed to the characterization of the protest as violent with no evidence. 

I also pointed to police killings and the confederate flags a few posts later, the former you and I have been having a good discussion about. A sincere thanks for that conversation. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2020, 01:07 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Wasn't the protest in question a Black Lives Matter protest though? So still relevant if loaded.

Not really. This protest was not about the BLM message of police brutality. The STL mayor is quite liberal. They were just mad at her. 

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(07-15-2020, 01:11 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yes it was. I also pointed to the characterization of the protest as violent with no evidence. 

I also pointed to police killings and the confederate flags a few posts later, the former you and I have been having a good discussion about. A sincere thanks for that conversation. 

Since it's supposed to be a mega thread and I guess PnR 2.0 is supposed to be a fair forum of discussion, I would just edit the OP to something generic about discussing BLM, rather than starting it off with a jab at the gun toting home owners and Trump.

The OP looks more like a discussion specifically on this one incidence and starts from a very certain point of view.

[BmorePat87]

(07-15-2020, 01:17 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Since it's supposed to be a mega thread and I guess PnR 2.0 is supposed to be a fair forum of discussion, I would just edit the OP to something generic about discussing BLM, rather than starting it off with a jab at the gun toting home owners and Trump.

The OP looks more like a discussion specifically on this one incidence and starts from a very certain point of view.

I understand the intent, but I think my post, despite me ripping on them, was clear and on topic. Unfortunately the dialogue turned into defending Trump's remarks by suggesting the people had legitimate concerns, rather than focusing on the fact that Trump, weeks later, is suggesting without any evidence that BLM protestors are inherently violent and would have attacked them if they didn't have guns.

That seems to have died down, and the discussion on this most recent page is related to my second article, police killings, so I think we're good.

[GMDino]

(07-14-2020, 11:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I got a question:

What is this "peaceful protester" doing



or this one:


You can plainly see that woman is terrified.

Looks like he's carrying a boom mic to record sound for someone.  Maybe "the media".

Or did you think that was a gun? 

The second photo shows someone pointing.  There is zero chance the protests aimed a gun at the couple first because, wait for it, the couple came out of their house pointing guns at  people.  I'm going to look into this though just to see if any of the protestors had guns on them at all.

[GMDino]

Story from a local reporter that day.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/us/st-louis-couple-protest-firearms-trnd/index.html

Quote:Protesters en route to demonstrate outside the St. Louis mayor's residence were walking on a private street when two armed individuals came out of a home brandishing weapons.


Videos obtained by CNN show two people, a man with a long rifle and a woman with a handgun, holding their firearms outside a St. Louis home as protesters walked by -- protesting Mayor Lyda Krewson's decision to publish the names and addresses of people in favor of police reform.


Two eyewitness videos obtained by CNN were taken outside the home on Portland Place, a private street near Krewson's home, around 7:30 p.m. Sunday.


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[url=https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/us/st-louis-mayor-police-reform/index.html]Calls for resignation mount after St. Louis mayor releases names of individuals calling for police reform


Daniel Shular, a local reporter, took one of the videos and said he watched the entire roughly 10-minute long incident unfold. About 500 protesters were cutting through Portland Place, according to Shular, to bypass road closures nearby that blocked access to the mayor's home.


"A door next to the gate at Portland Place was unlocked and protesters went through it to cut through the neighborhood to get to Krewson's house," he told CNN.

et Location

That's when Shular says the man and the woman -- now identified as Mark and Patricia McCloskey -- came out of the house with the firearms. At one point in his 31-second video, the woman points the handgun in the direction of protesters.

Protesters making their way to demonstrate outside of the St. Louis mayor's residence were walking on a private street when two armed individuals came out of a home with weapons.


Couple that brandished firearms speaks out

"A mob of at least 100 smashed through the historic wrought iron gates of Portland Place, destroying them, rushed towards my home where my family was having dinner outside and put us in fear of our lives," Mark McCloskey, 63, told CNN affiliate KMOV.

Property records obtained by CNN confirm the two own the property. The St Louis Streets Department confirmed to CNN that Portland Place is a private street.

"The peaceful protesters were not the subject of scorn or disdain by the McCloskeys," their attorney, Albert S. Watkins, said in a statement to CNN. "To the contrary, they were expecting and supportive of the message of the protesters. The actions of violence, destruction of property and acts of threatening aggression by a few individuals commingling with the peaceful protesters, gave rise to trepidation and fear of imminent and grave."
Watkins says his clients acted, "lawfully on their property," and that "their actions were borne solely of fear and apprehension, the genesis of which was not race related. In fact, the agitators responsible for the trepidation were white."

Firearms were brandished, pointed at protesters

"This is all private property," McCloskey went on to say in his statement to KMOV. "There are no public sidewalks or public streets. We were told that we would be killed, our home burned and our dog killed. We were all alone facing an angry mob."

A second video, taken later on in the incident by protester Avery Risch, shows just how tense the situation got. At one point, Patricia McCloskey, 61, was standing on the grass, closer to the protesters, pointing the handgun at them.

In both Shula and Risch's videos, it appears the McCloskey's and protesters exchange words, but it's unclear what is said.

"Organizers and clergy were actively warning people prior to entering the street that there was a couple with guns and if you weren't comfortable with that, do not enter the street," Risch told CNN. "Organizers and clergy were also moving the crowd along and encouraging everyone to not give them the time of day."

The St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department told CNN it is investigating the incident. Circuit Attorney for the city Kimberly M. Gardner told CNN in a statement that she was alarmed by the events and her office is investigating.
"We must protect the right to peacefully protest, and any attempt to chill it through intimidation or threat of deadly force will not be tolerated," she said in her statement. "Make no mistake: we will not tolerate the use of force against those exercising their First Amendment rights, and will use the full power of Missouri law to hold people accountable."

Police, circuit attorney are investigating

According to a police report, officers responded to a "call for help" made by the couple, who said there was a loud commotion.

The police report said the couple "observed a large group of subjects forcefully break an iron gate marked with 'No Trespassing' and 'Private Street' signs."

However, Shular and Risch said they did not witness a gate being broken.

"It looked like the gate was unlocked," Shular told CNN. "I didn't see anyone try to break it."

In a video livestreamed on Facebook, the left gate door is held open by the first protesters that enter the private street. That video does not show how the door was first opened.

However, a second Facebook Live video taken later shows the right gate door bent and broken on the ground.
Twenty seconds after several protesters made their way through the gate, the video shows Mark McCloskey exiting his house with a long rifle, yelling at protesters to leave the private street.

Once through the gate, (the McCloskeys) advised the group that they were "on a private street and trespassing and told them to leave," according to police. The couple told police the group began yelling obscenities and threatened to harm them.

In both videos livestreamed on Facebook, there is a heated, often profane, back and forth between the protesters and the McCloskeys.

"When the victims observed multiple subjects who were armed, they then armed themselves and contacted police," states the report.

Shular recounted to CNN that he did see some armed people at the protest but that "no one drew their guns on the people from the house."
Why protesters were demonstrating

The protesters passing through Portland Place were headed to Mayor Krewson's house, spurred by her reading the names and addresses of people asking for police reform. The names and home addresses she read were submitted as part of public comments to the St. Louis County Council.

Friday, the mayor apologized on Twitter, saying she didn't mean to hurt anyone.

"I'd like to apologize for identifying individuals who presented letters to me at City Hall today. This was during one of my Facebook updates as I was answering routine questions," Krewson said in a tweet. "Never did I intend to harm anyone or cause distress. The update is removed and again, I apologize."

CNN has reached out to the St. Louis mayor and protest organizers about the incident but has not yet received a response.

tl;dr

It was a private street.  The couple does not own it exclusively
The group was told people there have drawn guns before and to be prepared or to avoid going that way.
Reports covering the march said a couple protestors had guns but never drew them even after being threatened by the couple.
The only people saying the gate was broken by the protestors is...the couple who said they felt threatened.
The couple actually got closer to the group and threatened them as the group walked away.

[GMDino]

Posted over in the good cop/bad cop thread but it involves BLM so I'll cross post it here too:

None of the officers involved in the murder have been charged.  The Protestors are facing felony charges for tresspassing.

Breonna Taylor protesters sat peacefully on the Kentucky attorney general’s lawn. Police charged 87 of them with felonies.#BlackLivesMatter https://t.co/VZqj5iUP7a

— Jon Cooper ?? (@joncoopertweets) July 15, 2020

 


"Law and Order"

[Benton]

(07-15-2020, 08:54 AM)GMDino Wrote: Looks like he's carrying a boom mic to record sound for someone.  Maybe "the media".

Or did you think that was a gun? 

The second photo shows someone pointing.  There is zero chance the protests aimed a gun at the couple first because, wait for it, the couple came out of their house pointing guns at  people.  I'm going to look into this though just to see if any of the protestors had guns on them at all.

A friend of mine is a big trump fan and given our proximity to STL, he's jumped all over this one. A few days ago he posted a meme with the mic in it on Facebook. Something about "still think blm is peaceful?"

Normally, I scroll through it. But the dude is one of the head techs for the local TV station and got there because he revamped their camera equipment years ago with cheaper, better quality stuff when he was a cameraman. I was like "hey, Phillip, isn't that like the mics you used?"

He didn't respond, but I'm guessing he deleted the post as it's not on his timeline.

Ah well. People see what they want to see.

Some see some crazy top income bracket earners threatening people walking through their neighborhood; others see angry black people with guns.

[fredtoast]

(07-14-2020, 08:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But in some liberal, crazy twist of logic these folks are to blame because they showed they were willing to defend their property. I recommend you let this go and just enjoy the absurdity. 

It is not luberal logic. It is the law. You can't claim that peaceful prlotestors are a threat just because other protests have turned violent.

That is the same argument people try to use against the police. You can't claim every cop is a threat to your life just because some them have murderd people.

You are allowed to stand armed guard on your property but you can't point guns at people who are not a threat.

[BmorePat87]

(07-15-2020, 10:34 AM)Benton Wrote: A friend of mine is a big trump fan and given our proximity to STL, he's jumped all over this one. A few days ago he posted a meme with the mic in it on Facebook. Something about "still think blm is peaceful?"

Normally, I scroll through it. But the dude is one of the head techs for the local TV station and got there because he revamped their camera equipment years ago with cheaper, better quality stuff when he was a cameraman. I was like "hey, Phillip, isn't that like the mics you used?"

He didn't respond, but I'm guessing he deleted the post as it's not on his timeline.

Ah well. People see what they want to see.

Some see some crazy top income bracket earners threatening people walking through their neighborhood; others see angry black people with guns.

It is a shotgun mic (actual name), so who can say it DOESN'T also double as a firearm, given the name? They say they're really dangerous. You tell me.