Stand Your Ground Law

[*bfine32*]

(07-25-2018, 04:31 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The message here is that defending people being harassed is just as bad as harassing that person. 

Meh, I don't see the same message.

I think it has more to do about when the altercation turn from a verbal one to a physical one.

[Benton]

(07-25-2018, 05:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The law seems to let anyone who is carrying shot first if there is any sort of conflict. There can't be competing claims because one side will be dead, so the other side can claim stand your ground.

That's not uncommon. My concealed carry instructor cautioned that if you have to defend yourself you could be liable to litigation... unless you use deadly force.

She wasn't openly saying "make sure he's dead" but that was the implication.

[BmorePat87]

(07-25-2018, 05:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Meh, I don't see the same message.

I think it has more to do about when the altercation turn from a verbal one to a physical one.

It's a matter of whether or not you believe that it is a reasonable and justifiable use of force to shove a strange man who is screaming at your significant other and child away from them.

I can't inherently fault the first person who uses force if they are doing so in an attempt to protect others. Sometimes it is necessary.  

My take would then just be that shooting someone in the chest for shoving you because you screamed at their partner and child is not reasonable nor justifiable.

[*bfine32*]

(07-25-2018, 06:17 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's a matter of whether or not you believe that it is a reasonable and justifiable use of force to shove a strange man who is screaming at your significant other and child away from them.

I can't inherently fault the first person who uses force if they are doing so in an attempt to protect others. Sometimes it is necessary.  

My take would then just be that shooting someone in the chest for shoving you because you screamed at their partner and child is not reasonable nor justifiable.

Sure, but that's not even close to what you said in the thread I quoted. 

[GMDino]

(07-25-2018, 06:17 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's a matter of whether or not you believe that it is a reasonable and justifiable use of force to shove a strange man who is screaming at your significant other and child away from them.

I can't inherently fault the first person who uses force if they are doing so in an attempt to protect others. Sometimes it is necessary.  

My take would then just be that shooting someone in the chest for shoving you because you screamed at their partner and child is not reasonable nor justifiable.

And isn't that at the heart of the "stand your ground" debate?  The coward with the gun claims they felt threatened...even if they started the incident.

The lesson learned is let the bully/cowards run their mouths, push you, stalk you...you just be quiet and walk away or you probably did something to get yourself shot.

Oh, but the shooter is TOTALLY at fault.  But....

[BmorePat87]

(07-25-2018, 06:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure, but that's not even close to what you said in the thread I quoted. 

You quoted my interpretation of someone's post and offered a viewpoint counter to my own, so I wrote a response to your viewpoint.

[BmorePat87]

(07-26-2018, 08:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: And isn't that at the heart of the "stand your ground" debate?  The coward with the gun claims they felt threatened...even if they started the incident.

The lesson learned is let the bully/cowards run their mouths, push you, stalk you...you just be quiet and walk away or you probably did something to get yourself shot.

Oh, but the shooter is TOTALLY at fault.  But....

Well in Florida the lesson is to shoot first or take the abuse. Using anything less than deadly force to defend yourself and others will give the perpetrator a free pass to kill you.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I'm having a hard time understanding how some don't get that's it's almost never a good idea to take a verbal altercation to the physical level. Words are just that, they don't cause physical damage. For the obtuse among us, I am not suggesting that being pushed is justification to shoot the person who pushed you. I am saying that the law does not allow you to use physical force against someone who is verbally accosting you or someone else.

When you escalate a verbal confrontation to a physical one you are creating a situation in which any number of bad things can happen. Say he pushes the guy, guy falls down and hit his head at an awkward angle on the side of a car or on the curb. Guy breaks his neck in the process and is paralyzed. You are now legally responsible for causing severe and permanent bodily injury.

The lesson here kids is be the bigger man and walk away. Don't let someone else control you with words and put yourself in physical and legal jeopardy.



And no, for the morons, that doesn't justify being shot or excuse the shooter in any way.

[BmorePat87]

(07-26-2018, 11:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm having a hard time understanding how some don't get that's it's almost never a good idea to take a verbal altercation to the physical level.  Words are just that, they don't cause physical damage.  For the obtuse among us, I am not suggesting that being pushed is justification to shoot the person who pushed you.  I am saying that the law does not allow you to use physical force against someone who is verbally accosting you or someone else.

When you escalate a verbal confrontation to a physical one you are creating a situation in which any number of bad things can happen.  Say he pushes the guy, guy falls down and hit his head at an awkward angle on the side of a car or on the curb.  Guy breaks his neck in the process and is paralyzed.  You are now legally responsible for causing severe and permanent bodily injury.  

The lesson here kids is be the bigger man and walk away.  Don't let someone else control you with words and put yourself in physical and legal jeopardy.



And no, for the morons, that doesn't justify being shot or excuse the shooter in any way.

The stand your ground law gave him the right to use up to deadly force to protect others from great bodily harm or to prevent a felony. Let's say Drejka fell and hit his head and died. McGlockton would then invoke stand your ground. He had a reasonable fear for the life of his girlfriend and child. He didn't have to retreat. 

But, I get what you're saying about any other state where I wouldn't have the right to shove someone, but I would probably still physically separate a strange man who was inches from my girlfriend's face screaming at her while my child was feet away. I'm not going to take chances with their lives. 

[GMDino]

(07-26-2018, 11:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm having a hard time understanding how some don't get that's it's almost never a good idea to take a verbal altercation to the physical level.  Words are just that, they don't cause physical damage.  For the obtuse among us, I am not suggesting that being pushed is justification to shoot the person who pushed you.  I am saying that the law does not allow you to use physical force against someone who is verbally accosting you or someone else.

So Cowardwithagun can't shoot a guy who has him cornered, screaming at him if he never touched him and claim "stand your ground"?

I'd be genuinely curious if that is true.

(07-26-2018, 11:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: When you escalate a verbal confrontation to a physical one you are creating a situation in which any number of bad things can happen.  Say he pushes the guy, guy falls down and hit his head at an awkward angle on the side of a car or on the curb.  Guy breaks his neck in the process and is paralyzed.  You are now legally responsible for causing severe and permanent bodily injury.  

The lesson here kids is be the bigger man and walk away.  Don't let someone else control you with words and put yourself in physical and legal jeopardy.



And no, for the morons, that doesn't justify being shot or excuse the shooter in any way.

(07-26-2018, 08:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: The lesson learned is let the bully/cowards run their mouths, push you, stalk you...you just be quiet and walk away or you probably did something to get yourself shot.

Oh, but the shooter is TOTALLY at fault.  But....

[GMDino]

(07-26-2018, 11:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The stand your ground law gave him the right to use up to deadly force to protect others from great bodily harm or to prevent a felony. Let's say Drejka fell and hit his head and died. McGlockton would then invoke stand your ground. He had a reasonable fear for the life of his girlfriend and child. He didn't have to retreat. 

But, I get what you're saying about any other state where I wouldn't have the right to shove someone, but I would probably still physically separate a strange man who was inches from my girlfriend's face screaming at her while my child was feet away. I'm not going to take chances with their lives. 

You gotta stop defending yourself Pat or you might get shot by someone defending himself from you defending yourself.

And that would TOTALLY be the other guy's fault.  But....

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

For the simpleminded among us I suggest the following bit of edification.

Educate yourself on the difference between provocation and justification.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2018, 11:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The stand your ground law gave him the right to use up to deadly force to protect others from great bodily harm or to prevent a felony. Let's say Drejka fell and hit his head and died. McGlockton would then invoke stand your ground. He had a reasonable fear for the life of his girlfriend and child. He didn't have to retreat.

I think you're going to have a hard time convincing a jury that a guy shouting at you because you parked in a handicapped space would reasonably lead you to believe he was about to commit great bodily harm. 

Quote:But, I get what you're saying about any other state where I wouldn't have the right to shove someone, but I would probably still physically separate a strange man who was inches from my girlfriend's face screaming at her while my child was feet away. I'm not going to take chances with their lives. 

How is extricating yourself from a situation where a clearly irrational person is yelling at them "taking a chance with their lives"?

[Bengalzona]

If I were the shooter, somewhere in my subconscious I'd be a bit paranoid that someone would set me up this way and shoot me as well.

Gnawing away....

[fredtoast]

(07-26-2018, 12:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think you're going to have a hard time convincing a jury that a guy shouting at you because you parked in a handicapped space would reasonably lead you to believe he was about to commit great bodily harm. 

I don't know.  Rational people don't start fights over handicapped parking spaces.  The way this guy was harassing the woman was proof that he was unstable and a possible threat.

If he had just yelled at her as he was walking by it would be different, but he approached the car, harassed her to the point that people inside the store were talking about it, and was only inches from her when her boyfriend pushed him down.  Add in the fact that the guy was armed with a gun and it is pretty clear that he was a serious threat.  

People that act like that should not be allowed to carry guns.

[Benton]

(07-26-2018, 12:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think you're going to have a hard time convincing a jury that a guy shouting at you because you parked in a handicapped space would reasonably lead you to believe he was about to commit great bodily harm. 

Dunno, it depends on what he’s shouting. And, given that this guy has a history of the same antics, what he’s shouted in the past. In this instance, I doubt we find out.

If he was running his mouth about poor parking, then no. If he was threatening harm, then it’s possible mcglockton felt he needed to use force.

But I stilll don’t like the overall message of “be as big of an ass as you want, you’re entitled.” If I’m in a parking lot and see a guy yelling at women and children, I’m going to ask him to stop. I’d prefer not to, but if he kept it up I’d probably physically try to remove the guy. Which, in Florida, would be justification to shoot me.

[Bengalzona]

I think the message from the Florida law is clear: If a guy starts an altercation with you, take the m***** f***** out permanently before he has a chance to draw on you. Don't just push him over and hope he gets the message.

[BmorePat87]

(07-26-2018, 12:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think you're going to have a hard time convincing a jury that a guy shouting at you because you parked in a handicapped space would reasonably lead you to believe he was about to commit great bodily harm. 

An armed man has approached someone and is screaming at them. I think that fits the criteria for their law. 



[quote pid='569796' dateline='1532618556']
How is extricating yourself from a situation where a clearly irrational person is yelling at them "taking a chance with their lives"?
[/quote]

Crazy man in their face screaming at them, I immediately believe they are in danger. He's in between me and them.

[GMDino]

What if I was afraid the man who was ONLY verbally assaulting me might be unhinged and maybe even armed?!?!

Gotta stand my ground!

[*PhilHos*]

(07-26-2018, 01:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know.  Rational people don't start fights over handicapped parking spaces.  The way this guy was harassing the woman was proof that he was unstable and a possible threat.

If he had just yelled at her as he was walking by it would be different, but he approached the car, harassed her to the point that people inside the store were talking about it, and was only inches from her when her boyfriend pushed him down.  Add in the fact that the guy was armed with a gun and it is pretty clear that he was a serious threat.  

People that act like that should not be allowed to carry guns.

This brings up a question: at what point, legally speaking, does it become physical: when they physically touch you, when they don't touch you but they are clearly in your personal space (i.e. literally their face is inches away from yours), when they don't touch you but in order to move you are required to go around them and/or push past them, or any other option I haven't considered?