Stand Your Ground Law

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Not a fan of how this was interpreted. Stand your ground laws are reasonably intended to indemnify a victim from the burden of retreating before using lethal force. An unfortunate, and I hope unintended, side effect of this is enabling dickheads like this dude and Zimmerman to use deadly force the instant a confrontation turns physical. I've said for years on both this and the old board that words, as obnoxious as they can be, don't justify a physical response. The minute you escalate an argument from the verbal to the physical you have put yourself into the hands of the other participant. Zimmerman precipitated the confrontation with Martin and then lied about Martin's statements to him (e.g. You're going to die tonight). This asshole precipitated the confrontation with this lady. The minute the boyfriend decided the initiators words deserved physical intervention he put himself in the hands of the asshole.

If even one person in this confrontation acted like a rational adult then no one would have died.

[*Nately120*]

(07-24-2018, 12:07 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This asshole precipitated the confrontation with this lady.  The minute the boyfriend decided the initiators words deserved physical intervention he put himself in the hands of the asshole.

If even one person in this confrontation acted like a rational adult then no one would have died.

This reminds me of a buddy of mine who was in too deep with a crazy chick who was a pretty big fan of causing drama and starting fights.  This friend of mine is probably 5'7 if he stood on a phone book and a pretty mellow guy, but there were times when his gf would start a fight and then get mad at him for not springing to her rescue.  One specific time she started something with another woman at some bar and eventually this other woman's boyfriend is ready to batter my friend because he's gotta defend HIS gf.  My buddy basically told this guy he's sorry for the trouble and that he's not going to get in a fight over this.  My buddy's gf reacted to this by turning on him, pushing him, and storming out of the bar before reading him the riot act on what a lousy bf he was.

I told him it's his life to live, but she's probably going to get him killed eventually.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-24-2018, 12:24 AM)Nately120 Wrote: This reminds me of a buddy of mine who was in too deep with a crazy chick who was a pretty big fan of causing drama and starting fights.  This friend of mine is probably 5'7 if he stood on a phone book and a pretty mellow guy, but there were times when his gf would start a fight and then get mad at him for not springing to her rescue.  One specific time she started something with another woman at some bar and eventually this other woman's boyfriend is ready to batter my friend because he's gotta defend HIS gf.  My buddy basically told this guy he's sorry for the trouble and that he's not going to get in a fight over this.  My buddy's gf reacted to this by turning on him, pushing him, and storming out of the bar before reading him the riot act on what a lousy bf he was.

I told him it's his life to live, but she's probably going to get him killed eventually.  

Good lord, I cannot tell you the amount of fights I've seen caused by a woman who started shit because she knew she wasn't the one who was going to have to get physical.  Mind you I think the vast majority of women are nothing like this.  But the ones that are seem to revel in causing a fight they know they won't have to deal with personally.  I dated a woman, for a short time, who was this type.  This was in my early 20's but I quickly learned that she had to go and I never wanted to be involved with another woman like her.  I think they enjoy watching the physical confrontation and the idea that their man can dominate another man physically.  If your friend left this woman than good on him, he sounds like a reasonable and mature dude.

[*Nately120*]

(07-24-2018, 12:33 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Good lord, I cannot tell you the amount of fights I've seen caused by a woman who started shit because she knew she wasn't the one who was going to have to get physical.  Mind you I think the vast majority of women are nothing like this.  But the ones that are seem to revel in causing a fight they know they won't have to deal with personally.  I dated a woman, for a short time, who was this type.  This was in my early 20's but I quickly learned that she had to go and I never wanted to be involved with another woman like her.  I think they enjoy watching the physical confrontation and the idea that their man can dominate another man physically.  If your friend left this woman than good on him, he sounds like a reasonable and mature dude.

There is a sort of perverted honor in "defending a lady" that is still held in regard, particular when alcohol is involved.  Another fun story, another friend of mine, this one is about 6'4 and 400lbs, has a sister and the three of us were having a few drinks years ago and she presented a hypothetical asking if he'd confront someone who was saying some not nice things about her.  The dialog went something like this:

HIM - No, why would I?  Who cares what some drunk idiot thinks?
HER - So you wouldn't defend my honor?
HIM - IF I do confront him two things could happen.  One, I kick his ass, lose my job, and then go to jail.  Two, he kicks my ass, I lose my job, and maybe go to jail.  
ME - Actually three, you kick his ass and he shoots or stabs you for kicking his ass. If someone your size is coming after me I'd shoot first and live to see what a jury thinks.

Again, she isn't a bad person, but she was just ingrained in that sort of "defense via offense" and barroom honor culture and we weren't.  Thankfully my days of near confrontation ended when the college-era days of actually going out and drinking were behind me after I completely wised up.  I'd say my most noteworthy moment was when the ex of my gf at the time was at the same bar as I was and he seemed like he was pissed and wanted to fight me.  I stayed seated and shrugged and said "Can't you just find someone else?" and he seemed genuinely taken aback by that response.  

Ida know, maybe if I hadn't spent my whole life being 5'10 and about 160lbs or so at my most fit I would have had more of an affinity for fighting people.  Ok side rant over, back to people starting fights, getting in fights, and then being like "holy crap, I gotta kill this maniac!"

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-24-2018, 12:46 AM)Nately120 Wrote: There is a sort of perverted honor in "defending a lady" that is still held in regard, particular when alcohol is involved.  Another fun story, another friend of mine, this one is about 6'4 and 400lbs, has a sister and the three of us were having a few drinks years ago and she presented a hypothetical asking if he'd confront someone who was saying some not nice things about her.  The dialog went something like this:

HIM - No, why would I?  Who cares what some drunk idiot thinks?
HER - So you wouldn't defend my honor?
HIM - IF I do confront him two things could happen.  One, I kick his ass, lose my job, and then go to jail.  Two, he kicks my ass, I lose my job, and maybe go to jail.  
ME - Actually three, you kick his ass and he shoots or stabs you for kicking his ass.  If someone your size is coming after me I'd shoot first and live to see what a jury thinks.

Again, she isn't a bad person, but she was just ingrained in that sort of "defense via offense" and barroom honor culture and we weren't.  Thankfully my days of near confrontation ended when the college-era days of actually going out and drinking were behind me after I completely wised up.  I'd say my most noteworthy moment was when the ex of my gf at the time was at the same bar as I was and he seemed like he was pissed and wanted to fight me.  I stayed seated and shrugged and said "Can't you just find someone else?" and he seemed genuinely taken aback by that response.  

Ida know, maybe if I hadn't spent my whole life being 5'10 and about 160lbs or so at my most fit I would have had more of an affinity for fighting people.  Ok side rant over, back to people starting fights, getting in fights, and then being like "holy crap, I gotta kill this maniac!"

Very true.  I'm 6"01" and over 200 lbs.  I've literally never started a fight in my life outside of 7th grade.  There is this, "defend the woman" mentality that goes way beyond actually defending a woman.  Defend a woman from physical violence, all day.  Defend her with physical violence from some idiot talking shit, hell no.  This is the crux of the thread btw, if the boyfriend had come out and told the asshole off, with as fragrant a vocabulary as he chose to employ, he'd still be alive.  Like I said, just one adult out of three acting like an actual adult and no one dies.

[*Nately120*]

(07-24-2018, 01:04 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Very true.  I'm 6"01" and over 200 lbs.  I've literally never started a fight in my life outside of 7th grade.  There is this, "defend the woman" mentality that goes way beyond actually defending a woman.  Defend a woman from physical violence, all day.  Defend her with physical violence from some idiot talking shit, hell no.  This is the crux of the thread btw, if the boyfriend had come out and told the asshole off, with as fragrant a vocabulary as he chose to employ, he'd still be alive.  Like I said, just one adult out of three acting like an actual adult and no one dies.

I wouldn't rule out a white 47 year old shooting a black 20 something for being verbally aggressive though either.  I'm pretty cynical though .

You have to just ignore people and even that makes them extra mad sometimes.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-24-2018, 01:11 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I wouldn't rule out a white 47 year old shooting a black 20 something for being verbally aggressive though either.  I'm pretty cynical though .

You have to just ignore people and even that makes them extra mad sometimes.

Possible to be sure.  In such an instance said 47 year old is facing murder charges that will stick.  Still, I stand by no one likely dies.  You are 100% correct as to the last bit.  Staying maddeningly calm when someone else is losing their mind ramps them up to 11.

[GMDino]

Just wondering how many more ways we can blame everyone except the coward who shot the gun?

"Guns don't kill people!  People who defend their women or park in spaces illegally kill people!"

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 08:14 AM)GMDino Wrote: Just wondering how many more ways we can blame everyone except the coward who shot the gun?

"Guns don't kill people!  People who defend their women or park in spaces illegally kill people!"

Pretty sure everyone blamed the guy.  

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 08:52 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Pretty sure everyone blamed the guy.  

Dunno.  

Conversation/post about "She shouldn't have parked there", "She probably was yelling back", "The bf shouldn't have pushed the guy", etc.

Seems to me that's blaming the victim...but whatever.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Dunno.  

Conversation/post about "She shouldn't have parked there", "She probably was yelling back", "The bf shouldn't have pushed the guy", etc.

Seems to me that's blaming the victim...but whatever.

You can say things that people did that aren't always the best idea, but everyone thinks the shooter is a scumbag.  Except the sheriff that is.

Edit:Maybe the prosecutor's office will step up. I have no problem with a stand your ground law, but this is a ridiculous use of it.

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 09:03 AM)michaelsean Wrote: You can say things that people did that aren't always the best idea, but everyone thinks the shooter is a scumbag.  Except the sheriff that is.

But why?

Is there a reason to try and come up with reasons to shift the blame?

"If they had stayed home he never would have been killed!"

"What was he buying in there anyway?!?!  Should have planned better the last time he went shopping?!?!"

"If they just wouldn't have gone out together this never would have happened!!"

Seriously, it's moot and I don't get it.

The conversation about loudmouth gf's who want their "man" to stand up for them? That's different.  

Excuses for what the victim could have done to "not get killed" is just dumb.

IMHO.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-24-2018, 09:07 AM)GMDino Wrote: But why?

Is there a reason to try and come up with reasons to shift the blame?

Literally no one is doing this.  All the adults in this thread have said the shooter was wrong and the events are a tragedy.  Don't let that stand in the way of your being professionally outraged though.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 09:07 AM)GMDino Wrote: But why?

Is there a reason to try and come up with reasons to shift the blame?

"If they had stayed home he never would have been killed!"

"What was he buying in there anyway?!?!  Should have planned better the last time he went shopping?!?!"

"If they just wouldn't have gone out together this never would have happened!!"

Seriously, it's moot and I don't get it.

The conversation about loudmouth gf's who want their "man" to stand up for them? That's different.  

Excuses for what the victim could have done to "not get killed" is just dumb.

IMHO.

Because we are discussing the whole thing.  i don't think it's moot as it can be a lesson that there are really unhinged people out there, and fair or not, you need to think about how to approach a situation.  In my opinion there is nothing wrong with knocking this jackass off his feet, but that doesn't make him any less dead.

I was downtown with my daughter, and she stepped off the curb to cross the street as a car was turning. I'm like what the hell are you doing? She said we have the right of way. And I said I'm sure that will be a lot of comfort from your wheelchair.

What I'm saying is we should all learn a lesson.  

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 09:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Literally no one is doing this.  All the adults in this thread have said the shooter was wrong and the events are a tragedy.  Don't let that stand in the way of your being professionally outraged though.

No outrage.  Just commenting on the unnecessary blame being put on the victims.  I think it's stupid.  You don't. 

"The shooter was wrong...but...."

Is looking to shift some blame to the victim for, uh, I guess being in the wrong place and having his gf get yelled at by the guy?  I dunno.


Michael's example is better.  Teaching someone to avoid a dangerous situation like walking into traffic.  This one about the victim just makes no sense.  "Don't talk to anyone every because they might be unhinged and shoot you for no reason".  lol.  Okay,

"outrage"

[Beaker]

(07-23-2018, 10:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really the only part of the episode that's a sticking point in my book. The female driver stated she did nothing wrong and told dude she could park wherever she wanted; that's not true. 

Did she deserve to be harassed by thimbledick for doing so? No. 

Did she do something wrong? Yes. 
 

Entitlement mentality can now get you killed.

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 09:12 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Because we are discussing the whole thing.  i don't think it's moot as it can be a lesson that there are really unhinged people out there, and fair or not, you need to think about how to approach a situation.  In my opinion there is nothing wrong with knocking this jackass off his feet, but that doesn't make him any less dead.

I was downtown with my daughter, and she stepped off the curb to cross the street as a car was turning.  I'm like what the hell are you doing?  She said we have the right of way.  And I said I'm sure that will be a lot of comfort from your wheelchair.  

What I'm saying is we should all learn a lesson.   

I get you example.

But in the topic of the thread the "lesson" seems to be don't risk human interaction or you might end up dead.  

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 09:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: I get you example.

But in the topic of the thread the "lesson" seems to be don't risk human interaction or you might end up dead.  

I would say it's just get the hell out of there when a nut is going off.  Easier said than done of course.  This is still all on the shooter though as far as I'm concerned.  He got shoved for acting like a giant dick.  

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 09:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I would say it's just get the hell out of there when a nut is going off.  Easier said than done of course.  This is still all on the shooter though as far as I'm concerned.  He got shoved for acting like a giant dick.  

And that's the end of the conversation for me.

Well, that and how he will not be charged...which is BS.

But the victims didn't do anything to get shot...so I'm not blaming them at all or making suggestions on how to avoid having a nut shoot you.  (As we've been told we can't stop all shootings.)  That's all I'm saying.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 09:54 AM)GMDino Wrote: And that's the end of the conversation for me.

Well, that and how he will not be charged...which is BS.

But the victims didn't do anything to get shot...so I'm not blaming them at all or making suggestions on how to avoid having a nut shoot you.  (As we've been told we can't stop all shootings.)  That's all I'm saying.

That's fine.  It's just a discussion about the situation.