German elections

[hollodero]

(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Dill Wrote: Thanks for the run down. I was living in Germany when the wall fell and a couple years after, so I remember Gysi et al. Lafontaine's star was rising back then. But I've only followed German politics occasionally since. Haven't been there since 2011, before the big migrant problem.

Oh... have you also been to Hasselhoff's wall concert where he sang "looking for freedom" there? This brought the wall down. Hasselhoff at least believes that.

(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Dill Wrote: The angry destructive fuse lighter vote describes the rank and file, and it makes sense that their support is strong in the former DDR, but I am puzzled so much of the leadership seem to be "Akademiker" and legal professionals in somewhat elevated and respected positions like state prosecutors. Those are usually the kind of people who plan things and take a longer view of actions and their consequences. They want to legitimize and normalize the extreme right. The angry destructive fuse lighter vote in the US and Britain generally rejects that kind of leadership.

I think one other difference might be that in Germany, for a long time, there have been small right wing parties(National party, Republikaner), different ones in different regions, but too incompatible to merge. The AfD may be collecting that vote too, bringing them together in an uneasy umbrella.

This is certainly true, they were split; and now joined the rest of Europe (well... most of the rest) in having one distinct anti-establishment, right-wing populism party. Still not too united though. AfD is still engaged in trench warfares. (When my countrys right-wing party engaged in actual governing, they split.)

As for the educated peope being part of the party, demagogry doesn't know these boundaries that would seem logical maybe. I don't wat to make too many cross references, but American AfU has a well connected millionaire as leader, and his administration is full of generals and wall street guys. The little guy doesn't rise to power with these movements. Didn't in my country, doesn't in the US, wouldn't in Germany.

(09-26-2017, 11:25 PM)Dill Wrote: Der Spiegel had a report on a small community outside Dresden with just under 14,000 inhabitants and only TEN asylum seekers, but a third of that community voted AfD.  The claim is that, curiously, the AfD has done well in places with few migrants.  In the US, conversely, Trump seems to have done well in places where racial diversity is higher and politically troubling.

Yeah, isn't that the most astonishing thing. It's not new. The less migrants there are in one region, the more rallied up people seem to be about migration, it's the same in Austria as well. Right-wing populism, as of now, doesn't do too good in cities where the migrants are. They do well on the countryside where people seldomly would even see one. Was the same with Pegida, if you know that one, only had success in low-migration regions as well.
Especially for Germany, I want to add that the former Soviet countries, including East Germany, seem very susceptible to right-wing rhetorics. Why, I still haven't figured out completely. But it's everywhere in the East of Europe.

[Dill]

(09-27-2017, 06:22 AM)hollodero Wrote: Oh... have you also been to Hasselhoff's wall concert where he sang "looking for freedom" there? This brought the wall down. Hasselhoff at least believes that.

What I remember is being totally baffled by his popularity in Germany.  Like Jerry Lewis and the French.  I saw part of a concert on tv; looked like a tv star playing a rock star in a movie not about rock.  Clumsy.  But pictures of him were smattered all over the newstands (LOL Bild articles with big pictures) and kiosks had posters announcing this or that tour.  In the US he was just a handsome but slow footed Baywatch hunk. Not a musician at all.

The main thing I remember regarding the fall of the wall is that all the porno shops in West Berlin were sold out by noon, the day that the BRD was handing out 100 DM Scheins at Checkpoint Charlie.  A week later there was an article in, I think, Der Speigel about West Berlin prostitutes complaining because all these super gorgeous East German prostitutes were undercutting their business--charging 20Dm where the locals charged 50-100.   When you come from a society where everything is so cheap, 20 DM must have seemed like WOW!  (I remember having a great dinner at a nice East Berlin restaurant in 1986-hefty portions of schnitzel, potatoes and gravy, multiple beers, separate salad--for 7 DDR marks. Even if you remember they forced you to exchange their devalued currency one for one for DM, that was still only about $2.50.)

[Dill]

(09-27-2017, 06:22 AM)hollodero Wrote: This is certainly true, they were split; and now joined the rest of Europe (well... most of the rest) in having one distinct anti-establishment, right-wing populism party. Still not too united though. AfD is still engaged in trench warfares. (When my countrys right-wing party engaged in actual governing, they split.)

As for the educated peope being part of the party, demagogry doesn't know these boundaries that would seem logical maybe. I don't wat to make too many cross references, but American AfU has a well connected millionaire as leader, and his administration is full of generals and wall street guys. The little guy doesn't rise to power with these movements. Didn't in my country, doesn't in the US, wouldn't in Germany.

I speculate extremist parties may do this because they are tired of "compromise" and are responding to authoritarian leadership. That increases the potential for fracture--till the movement gets a very strong leader and a real chunk of power.

Trump appointing Wall Streeters and Generals doesn't seem the same to me.  Many of those came after he was in power; Flynn fits Trump, but the other generals look like they came on board to save the country and manage Trump as best they can. And while many of his appointees may have college degrees, they are not academics (who live by research and teaching) and did not stump with him on the campaign trail. The Lawyers and prosecutors who support him, like Sessions, I guess that compares. But here as there, you are right the angry "little guy" does not rise to the top. The little guy's anger and energy are harnessed to pull the big guys' sled. In our case, a wall or a Muslim ban is dangled in front of them instead of a carrot. The AfD has real academics, people who teach philosophy and do research in economics. I don't see their counterparts in the Trump movement.

(09-27-2017, 06:22 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, isn't that the most astonishing thing. It's not new. The less migrants there are in one region, the more rallied up people seem to be about migration, it's the same in Austria as well. Right-wing populism, as of now, doesn't do too good in cities where the migrants are. They do well on the countryside where people seldomly would even see one. Was the same with Pegida, if you know that one, only had success in low-migration regions as well.
Especially for Germany, I want to add that the former Soviet countries, including East Germany, seem very susceptible to right-wing rhetorics. Why, I still haven't figured out completely. But it's everywhere in the East of Europe.

I can understand this. People lived under authoritarian dictatorships, with little experience negotiating power and compromising. They were told what to do.  Harshness varied considerably from regime to regime, but even "liberal" Hungary seems to have lurched rapidly right.

Before and after the fall of the wall, images of Western affluence were dangled before East block citizens, and then after the fall they still felt powerless as makeshift governments sold off government assets and fired large numbers of people. In the case of Germany, the Ossi's looked to be in good shape at first, as no other Warsaw Pact country was so immediately "brothered" to a Western economic power the way they were. Teary eyed Wessis were prepared to absorb higher taxes and other economic shocks to make their county whole again. Then the ethical leaders who led the revolution were eased out of power, prices for everything rose to Western levels. Bruederwessis became Besserwessis. And once again large groups of people felt unable to exercise political agency. Where they lack any cosmopolitan ethic and foreigners are welcomed into the country and housed and fed, then "Blut" becomes once again a talking point as a condition for political rights and power. 

At the same time, there were/are still many in the former DDR who learned how to analyze Capitalism and so have a model for explaining their situation and organizing to better it.  So I am not at all surprised that BOTH the Linke and AfD have stronger support in the former DDR than anywhere else.

It still isn't clear why areas of the former BRD with few immigrants might be so hostile to migrants.  I wonder if maybe their news sources are constricting, so they are paying more attention to right wing websites. Hearing stories of mass rape and the like, which would puzzle city dwellers, they want their country back.