Supreme Court Rules against EPA having regulation of green house emissions

[Bengalzona]

(07-01-2022, 06:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I completely agree.  Congress is increasingly abdicating its responsibility and allowing the legislative and judicial branch to essentially do its job.  I don't blame the filibuster btw, although increasingly high levels of partisanship are certainly to blame.  Where I place the lion's share of the blame is on a complete inability to reach compromises on legislation.  Any concessions to the other side are viewed as intolerable weakness or breaches of orthodoxy.  This is absolutely one area in which "both sides do it" is 100% accurate and appropriate.  Gerrymandering and the increasing decline of purple districts, and states, is also a major factor.  At the end of the day, none of this is going to even start to be solved until both sides realize they'll have to eat some shit to move forward.  Unfortunately, I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

I would think at looking towards any type of cause or solution, we (all of us) would first need to look at the one place we absolutely do not want to look: the mirror. The government is a reflection of us and what have asked political parties to deliver. We asked for shit and, to their credit, they delivered shit. When and if we wake up and say "WTF?!?!", only then will we start to see some sort of reason in government.

And this party politics partisan crap is just a bunch of hogwash. Two sides of the same coin who act the same way. I think you have been consistent in pointing that out in the past.

[Lucidus]

(07-01-2022, 07:46 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I would think at looking towards any type of cause or solution, we (all of us) would first need to look at the one place we absolutely do not want to look: the mirror. The government is a reflection of us and what have asked political parties to deliver. We asked for shit and, to their credit, they delivered shit. When and if we wake up and say "WTF?!?!", only then will we start to see some sort of reason in government.

And this party politics partisan crap is just a bunch of hogwash. Two sides of the same coin who act the same way. I think you have been consistent in pointing that out in the past.

There are very real and rather sizeable barriers to compromise in some cases, where the sides aren't on the same coin at all. 

However, I agree with your overall sentiment. As Sagan stated:

"our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness..."

[Belsnickel]

I'm not a fan of compromise when the Overton window keeps shifting to the right. Compromise would just mean continual regression.

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2022, 05:40 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I hear folks in Cleveland are clamoring for the lake to catch back on fire.

The only lake of fire is hell. Wait… maybe metaphorically Cleveland is hell? Make sense to me, carry on.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-01-2022, 10:00 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: The only lake of fire is hell. Wait… maybe metaphorically Cleveland is hell? Make sense to me, carry on.

Fun fact - in no Holy book is Hell described as having lakes of fire. Most of that is from Dante's Inferno.

Not that the average American Christian actually knows that (in my experience).

[basballguy]

(07-01-2022, 10:26 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Fun fact - in no Holy book is Hell described as having lakes of fire. Most of that is from Dante's Inferno.

Not that the average American Christian actually knows that (in my experience).

Fun fact, yet again you're just making shit up.  Your "average American Christian" would know what the lake of fire is  We're gonna have to get a dedicated fact checker for you with all the bullshit you spew.  

Quote:And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Revelation 19:20

It's mentioned multiple times in the bible and the general interpretation is it's a metaphor for hell.  Not that it's a location within hell.  That shit you made up on your own.

(07-01-2022, 10:00 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: The only lake of fire is hell. Wait… maybe metaphorically Cleveland is hell? Make sense to me, carry on.

HarleyDog gets it right.  

[BigPapaKain]

(07-01-2022, 11:18 PM)basballguy Wrote: Fun fact, yet again you're just making shit up.  Your "average American Christian" would know what the lake of fire is  We're gonna have to get a dedicated fact checker for you with all the bullshit you spew.  


It's mentioned multiple times in the bible and the general interpretation is it's a metaphor for hell.  Not that it's a location within hell.  That shit you made up on your own.


HarleyDog gets it right.  

The Lake of Fire is not Hell, it's the Lake of Fire.

So...you're dumb.

Edit: I should elaborate; hell is simply described as being removed from God. Everything else is usually referring to Gehenna, which was a place on Earth where garbage was burned at the time. They also make mention of hades, which was literally just an invisible world for the dead. The Old Testament had sheol, which also had no mention of fire.

Again, American Christians are idiots who don't know their own religion. See also: Angels and their choirs and appearances.

[basballguy]

(07-01-2022, 11:48 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The Lake of Fire is not Hell, it's the Lake of Fire.

So...you're dumb.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-01-2022, 11:53 PM)basballguy Wrote:

Read a Bible? Evidently.

[basballguy]

(07-01-2022, 11:48 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The Lake of Fire is not Hell, it's the Lake of Fire.

So...you're dumb.

Edit: I should elaborate; hell is simply described as being removed from God. Everything else is usually referring to Gehenna, which was a place on Earth where garbage was burned at the time. They also make mention of hades, which was literally just an invisible world for the dead. The Old Testament had sheol, which also had no mention of fire.

Again, American Christians are idiots who don't know their own religion. See also: Angels and their choirs and appearances.

"Here are some thing I just read on the internet that had nothing to do with the made up stuff I said earlier...oh let me add an insult while I'm at it"

I also don't know why you mention Gehenna or Hades other than probably just now learning about it....if you did, you still got it wrong.  Hades and Hell (sheol) are widely regarded as the same thing.  We're just talking Old Testament vs New Testament at this point.  

So again you're wrong.  I'll need to setup alerts for when you post so I can make sure you know what's wrong in each one.  

[BigPapaKain]

(07-02-2022, 12:24 AM)basballguy Wrote: "Here are some thing I just read on the internet that had nothing to do with the made up stuff I said earlier...oh let me add an insult while I'm at it"

I also don't know why you mention Gehenna or Hades other than probably just now learning about it....if you did, you still got it wrong.  Hades and Hell (sheol) are widely regarded as the same thing.  We're just talking Old Testament vs New Testament at this point.  

So again you're wrong.  I'll need to setup alerts for when you post so I can make sure you know what's wrong in each one.  

*sigh*

Let's break this down for you. I'd do it in crayon, but online limitations prevent me from doing so. Also I don't have any crayons.

Hell - described by the Bible as removal from God and His grace
Hades - the invisible plane where the dead who reject God go to await Judgement Day 
Sheol - Hades
Gehenna - a literal place on Earth where garbage fires burned constantly; a place of banishment
Lake of Fire - where everyone not in the book of life will be cast, including Satan and Death. It is a second and final death; the death of the soul if you will.

Lake of Fire =/= Hell

If this is still too complicated for you, I will direct you to Google and search 'Hell for Preschoolers'.

These aren't my observations; this is theological study done by experts in fairy tales...er religion. 

[basballguy]

(07-02-2022, 12:41 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: *sigh*

Let's break this down for you. I'd do it in crayon, but online limitations prevent me from doing so. Also I don't have any crayons.

Hell - described by the Bible as removal from God and His grace
Hades - the invisible plane where the dead who reject God go to await Judgement Day 
Sheol - Hades
Gehenna - a literal place on Earth where garbage fires burned constantly; a place of banishment
Lake of Fire - where everyone not in the book of life will be cast, including Satan and Death. It is a second and final death; the death of the soul if you will.

Lake of Fire =/= Hell

If this is still too complicated for you, I will direct you to Google and search 'Hell for Preschoolers'.

These aren't my observations; this is theological study done by experts in fairy tales...er religion. 

I like how every time you think you're making a point you're just introducing another aspect of your ignorance.  

These are the most common interpretations:

1) Hell = Sheol in the old testament 
2) Sheol = Hades in the new testament
3) Sheol and Hades are with certainty referred to as the same place with different contexts when comparing the old testament to the new testament
4) No matter how you want to deny it....lake of fire is a very common metaphor for Hell.   
5) Nobody gives a flying f about Gehnna so please just stop with that

The fact you are arguing this as someone that doesn't even believe in religion and is clearly getting their info from google (and a demonstrable inferior knowledge) with someone who actually knows what they're talking about....is absurd.

I can correct your posts all night.  Let me know how long you'll keep going so I can plan ahead.  

[BigPapaKain]

(07-02-2022, 12:59 AM)basballguy Wrote: I like how every time you think you're making a point you're just introducing another aspect of your ignorance.  

These are the most common interpretations:

1) Hell = Sheol in the old testament 
2) Sheol = Hades in the new testament
3) Sheol and Hades are with certainty referred to as the same place with different contexts when comparing the old testament to the new testament
4) No matter how you want to deny it....lake of fire is a very common metaphor for Hell.   
5) Nobody gives a flying f about Gehnna so please just stop with that

The fact you are arguing this as someone that doesn't even believe in religion and is clearly getting their info from google (and a demonstrable inferior knowledge) with someone who actually knows what they're talking about....is absurd.

I can correct your posts all night.  Let me know how long you'll keep going so I can plan ahead.  

Nobody really gives a flying f about the Bible or its teachings as indicated by Christians actions either so it makes sense you'd say nobody cares about Gehenna.

Just because the Lake of Fire is used as a metaphor for Hell by everyone doesn't make them interchangeable. But burning for eternity puts more asses in seats than the threat of being cut off from God so that's why it's used. But you go ahead and keep being wrong. Personally I find it adorable watching you try and prove me wrong (and thinking you're succeeding).

But you're right in one thing - I genuinely don't care about religion. Aside from using it against people who use it against others.

Next I'm sure you'll explain to me how Jesus DEFINITELY existed and was a blue eyed white dude.

[Belsnickel]

Holy shit, give it a ***** rest. There have been some of the most inane arguments on here, lately.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-02-2022, 10:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Holy shit, give it a ***** rest. There have been some of the most inane arguments on here, lately.

I would apologize for derailing here, but it's funnier not to.

[HarleyDog]

(07-02-2022, 10:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Holy shit, give it a ***** rest. There have been some of the most inane arguments on here, lately.

See, just mentioning Cleveland gets everyone fired up.

[Sled21]

(07-01-2022, 12:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think the issue here is regulatory agencies essentially legislating.  You see the same issue with the ATF, who literally creates new "laws" out of whole cloth and changes them, literally, on whim.  Now, if you want to complain about Congress and it's increasing abdication of its role in government, I'll be right there with you.

Exactly. Despite the usual histrionics, what the Supreme Court ruled was that a government agency does not have the authority to make regulations with such a broad effect on the countries economy. The said this has to be done by the legislature, or at the very least, the legislature has to give that authority to the agency. Not sure how that is some horrible decision. It's basically the same as saying Buttigieg can't come out tomorrow and say you can't drive a vehicle on the highway that gets less that 75 mpg. That would basically shut the country down, and a federal agency does nor should it have that kind of power without the people being affected having a vote. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2022, 11:33 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Exactly. Despite the usual histrionics, what the Supreme Court ruled was that a government agency does not have the authority to make regulations with such a broad effect on the countries economy. The said this has to be done by the legislature, or at the very least, the legislature has to give that authority to the agency. Not sure how that is some horrible decision. It's basically the same as saying Buttigieg can't come out tomorrow and say you can't drive a vehicle on the highway that gets less that 75 mpg. That would basically shut the country down, and a federal agency does nor should it have that kind of power without the people being affected having a vote. 

I typically agree, but this comes with problems.

First, Congress is ineffective. We all know this. They shit the bed every opportunity they get and would rather focus on wedge issues than actually doing their job.

Second, they are ignorant. There has been a brain drain going on for the past 50ish years where the number of staffers in the Capitol has been decreasing as legislators send them to their home offices to deal with constituent services. Sounds great, right? Well, while it used to be that legislators had staffers that would specialize in various topics to help guide them in their decision making since most of them don't know shit about most of the topics they have to vote on and don't have nearly enough time to research it. So what is happening now? Lobbyists are the ones feeding the information to the legislators and in some cases even writing the legislation. We are abdicating the responsibility of regulation to the industries being regulated.

Third, and last, the idea behind an effective bureaucracy is one that is given limited rule-making authority overseen by elected officials so that they can more effectively and efficiently deal with the problems that arise. Now, the legislature absolutely needs to engage in one of their most important functions: oversight of the executive branch. This includes making sure bureaucratic rule-making is not running roughshod all over the democratic processes. But that is something that would again be solved by a legislature that actually did something.

Anyway, Congressional reform is what is needed, absolutely agree. We just need to make sure we know into whose hands we are entrusting this authority.

[*michaelsean*]

Everybody is going to complain, but are they correct? I honestly don’t know, but we often complain when we get an outcome we don’t like rather than looking at the law.

[treee]

(07-04-2022, 04:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Everybody is going to complain, but are they correct?  I honestly don’t know, but we often complain when we get an outcome we don’t like rather than looking at the law.

It's judicial activism. Congress gave the EPA the authority.