Syrian family in Germany orders a hit on their own daughter

[Benton]

Quote:So we can't talk about issues that are happening in the world right now?


Honor killing, if it was indeed that, has to be carried out by a family member or the honor is not restored. The only one that typically will be exempted is when the father/mother kill their off spring. The girl stated prior to the killing that her family wanted her dead because it was an honor thing. It's pretty safe to assume that her family (father did the actual deed) did it, and this needs to be brought to light by the author so that people can get an understanding of it and address it properly instead of blowing it off because a teenage girl says her family will kill her (as Americans, when we hear teenage girls say that, we know that in most cases it's an exaggeration), but not in this girls culture.

To the first, sure. And if it's a political or religious issue, then this is the place for it.

To the bold, no she didn't. At least not according to the OP.

Quote:He listened to a tape she made in which she said: 'I was taken by three men. Ever since that time my family have regarded me as unclean. 
'My mother and my brothers mistreat me. They say that I deserve to die.'

Saying she deserved death and that they were going to kill her are different. It's also third hand hearsay.

Second, the only one accusing it of being an honor killing is the author... who presumably has a profit motive.
Third, my wife was a SANE nurse. I worked courts for several years. You never assume anything in a sexual assault case.

[*bfine32*]

(12-15-2015, 05:12 PM)Benton Wrote: Third, my wife was a SANE nurse.

When did she become insane?

[Benton]

(12-15-2015, 06:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When did she become insane?

When she said "I do."

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-15-2015, 05:12 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first, sure. And if it's a political or religious issue, then this is the place for it.

To the bold, no she didn't. At least not according to the OP.


Saying she deserved death and that they were going to kill her are different. It's also third hand hearsay.

Second, the only one accusing it of being an honor killing is the author... who presumably has a profit motive.
Third, my wife was a SANE nurse. I worked courts for several years. You never assume anything in a sexual assault case.

"But it was clear that she was afraid for her life, based on a message from her WhatsApp account that came right before she was murdered.

In a tape discovered by her employer, Mark Krüger, Rokstan explained that her family wanted her murdered after she was raped."

That doesn't exactly sound like 3rd hand knowledge. If she's saying it, then it's more like 1st hand knowledge.

The book the guy is writing is about interviews with the Syrian refugees.

Ok let's play your game.
Let's say it wasn't an honor killing and some random stabbing, and after all of that, she some how she ended up buried on her family's allotment in a shallow grave. That's a lot to grasp.

"Never assume anything in a sexual assault case." ??? Except that she was sexually assaulted over 2 years ago. This is not a sexual assault case, it is a murder case.

Everything described here fits with in the parameters of a typical honor killing.

[fredtoast]

Well, at least "honor killings" will not be a threat to US citizens if we allow in refugees. The only ones killed will be other Muslims.

Kind of like Christian snake handlers that kill themselves. It sounds crazy, but they are no threat to anyone else except themselves.

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2015, 04:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Not religion, a culture belief. How many deaths does it take?
It is estimated that there is 23-27 Honor Killings annually here in the US. Is that enough?


It's not a religious thing, it's a cultural one.
It is unfortunate the Muslims commit 91% of the honor killings world wide, and that almost all of those Muslims came from the Middle East.

http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

Seems to me that if you really were offended by honor killings then you would want more of these poor women to come to the United States where they have a better chance to survive.

But instead you want them trapped in a culture where it is accepted and they are more likely to be killed.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-15-2015, 07:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well, at least "honor killings" will not be a threat to US citizens if we allow in refugees.  The only ones killed will be other Muslims.

Kind of like Christian snake handlers that kill themselves.  It sounds crazy, but they are no threat to anyone else except themselves.

False.
The ones that want to adopt to our lifestyle are the ones getting killed by those that don't want them to adopt to our lifestyle.

(12-15-2015, 07:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Seems to me that if you really were offended by honor killings then you would want more of these poor women to come to the United States where they have a better chance to survive.

But instead you want them trapped in a culture where it is accepted and they are more likely to be killed.

Where have I ever said that we shouldn't be allowing the women and children in first?

The problem is that almost everyone that is coming over will have a very low education level. This is where we are failing at in our program. We are not educating them, but leaving them to fend for themselves after a few months. This should have been learned with how we handled the Somali Refugee's, but the government still doesn't have a clue and the refugee's are still being mishandled. Educate them, and I bet most of them stop hanging on to what they know and would be much more willing to embrace our culture.

[Vas Deferens]

(12-15-2015, 07:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: False.
The ones that want to adopt to our lifestyle are the ones getting killed by those that don't want them to adopt to our lifestyle.



Where have I ever said that we shouldn't be allowing the women and children in first?

The problem is that almost everyone that is coming over will have a very low education level. This is where we are failing at in our program. We are not educating them, but leaving them to fend for themselves after a few months. This should have been learned with how we handled the Somali Refugee's, but the government still doesn't have a clue and the refugee's are still being mishandled. Educate them, and I bet most of them stop hanging on to what they know and would be much more willing to embrace our culture.

We should probably start with our own population.  Lots of ignorance running rampant and clogging the social arteries.  Don't need to look much further than these boards.

[Benton]

(12-15-2015, 06:44 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The book the guy is writing is about interviews with the Syrian refugees.

Ok let's play your game.
Let's say it wasn't an honor killing and some random stabbing, and after all of that, she some how she ended up buried on her family's allotment in a shallow grave. That's a lot to grasp.

"Never assume anything in a sexual assault case." ??? Except that she was sexually assaulted over 2 years ago. This is not a sexual assault case, it is a murder case.

Everything described here fits with in the parameters of a typical honor killing.

To the bold, yeah. That's a motive to make it more than it might be. Profit. Books are written for money, otherwise it's just a collection of writings.

And why's it a lot to grasp? It could be her offender (if there was one) killed her and buried her. That would seem the obvious suspect. Or maybe the writer did it.

As far as the assumption, the point being that you can't assume anything about the assault. You can't assume it happened, or that it didn't. You can't assume that she was assaulted by three men and not one or not 15. You can't assume she wasn't just involved with three guys and claimed it was an assault to save face.

In a sexual assault case — which is what the author was claiming set off an honor killing — you can't assume anything.

So you have to look at the facts about the murder. They're few. Basically all you've got is a girl who may have been assaulted and said her family made her feel bad about it, and she ended up dead. That's not much.

(12-15-2015, 07:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: False.
The ones that want to adopt to our lifestyle are the ones getting killed by those that don't want them to adopt to our lifestyle.

Isn't that a bit of a generalization?

[Rotobeast]

(12-15-2015, 07:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well, at least "honor killings" will not be a threat to US citizens if we allow in refugees.  The only ones killed will be other Muslims.

Kind of like Christian snake handlers that kill themselves.  It sounds crazy, but they are no threat to anyone else except themselves.

You do not think that some US citizens will figure out that they only have to rape the immigrants, to have them murder one another ?
There are some deviant bastards that will view this as a win/win scenario.

[BmorePat87]

(12-15-2015, 04:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And let's just let more people in that believe in Honor Killing?


If it was religion based, how ever Honor Killing pre-dates Islam. Because it is still heavily practiced in the Middle Eastern Countries, we tend to associate it with Islam.

The Quran makes no mention of Honor Killing. If so, then why don't the Muslims in Indonesia actively practice it? Instead, they call it like it is, Murder.


So we can't talk about issues that are happening in the world right now?


Honor killing, if it was indeed that, has to be carried out by a family member or the honor is not restored. The only one that typically will be exempted is when the father/mother kill their off spring. The girl stated prior to the killing that her family wanted her dead because it was an honor thing. It's pretty safe to assume that her family (father did the actual deed) did it, and this needs to be brought to light by the author so that people can get an understanding of it and address it properly instead of blowing it off because a teenage girl says her family will kill her (as Americans, when we hear teenage girls say that, we know that in most cases it's an exaggeration), but not in this girls culture.


Honor Killings are not a religious practice.


False.


Is it just that? So would it be ok to use the 100,000 Somali Refugees from the 80's as a model of what to expect in 20+ years?


Not religion, a culture belief. How many deaths does it take?
It is estimated that there is 23-27 Honor Killings annually here in the US. Is that enough?


It's not a religious thing, it's a cultural one.
It is unfortunate the Muslims commit 91% of the honor killings world wide, and that almost all of those Muslims came from the Middle East.

http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings


I could list a bunch of honor killings that have happened here in the US, but I think we are all capable of google'ing them ourselves.

FGM is very wise spread as well and needs to be addressed and unfortunately is also practiced the most by people from the Middle East as well.

One of the biggest problems is that the police don't know how to properly identify cases with honor killing, most of the time, they just classify them as domestic disputes. We need to figure out a way to start distinguishing them from the normal domestic disputes.

 I was asking for some relevance to his post beyond his dislike for Muslims and he could not supply it. 

If he wants to discuss honor killings in the US, he can. Though the whole 23 honor killings a year compared to total number of family on family murder in this country seems to suggest that it isn't something unique to Syria. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-15-2015, 07:52 PM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, yeah. That's a motive to make it more than it might be. Profit. Books are written for money, otherwise it's just a collection of writings.

And why's it a lot to grasp? It could be her offender (if there was one) killed her and buried her. That would seem the obvious suspect. Or maybe the writer did it.

As far as the assumption, the point being that you can't assume anything about the assault. You can't assume it happened, or that it didn't. You can't assume that she was assaulted by three men and not one or not 15. You can't assume she wasn't just involved with three guys and claimed it was an assault to save face.

In a sexual assault case — which is what the author was claiming set off an honor killing — you can't assume anything.

So you have to look at the facts about the murder. They're few. Basically all you've got is a girl who may have been assaulted and said her family made her feel bad about it, and she ended up dead. That's not much.


Isn't that a bit of a generalization?

I guess that is an option that he killed her, but she only got killed once she left the women's house and returned to her family (and of course the guy was able to bury her on her family's allotment with out them noticing). Now the family (other than the mother) are no where to be found. If they were truly innocent, then they would be attempting to prove their innocence. I guess it is possible that they believe that they were framed, but that's a highly unlikely scenario. Now go back and look at some of the information.

The girl clearly states that she heard it from a friend that a hit had been put out on her by her mother.

I'm done arguing with you about this, we will have to agree to disagree. I see it as pretty clear cut for what I think it is. You disagree.


How is it a bit of a generalization?
The excuses they have for murdering their family members "specifically girls":
"suspicion of intimacy with another man"
"sexually assaulted" 
"being in the presence of a male that is not a relative"
"talking to boys that family disapproves of"
"refusing an arranged marriage"
"seeking divorce"
"becoming too westernized"

All of these are acceptable to the Western Society and happen frequently, yet killing someone for one of these infractions is pretty rare and usually done as more of a "heat of the moment crime of passion". The majority of the honor killings are more premeditated than "heat of the moment".

(12-16-2015, 10:20 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote:  I was asking for some relevance to his post beyond his dislike for Muslims and he could not supply it. 

If he wants to discuss honor killings in the US, he can. Though the whole 23 honor killings a year compared to total number of family on family murder in this country seems to suggest that it isn't something unique to Syria. 

That is correct, it is not just limited to Syria, but it is fairly limited to people that come from the Middle Eastern Countries. So bringing more people here from the ME could increase that number, if we aren't proactive about protecting the girls and informing the families that this behavior is unacceptable in this country.

BTW, that 23-27 annually, is what is reported, who knows how many are actually not reported.

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2015, 07:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: False.
The ones that want to adopt to our lifestyle are the ones getting killed by those that don't want them to adopt to our lifestyle.

Now I am confused.  Are honor killings about rape victims or Muslims who want to live more moderate lifestyles?

[fredtoast]

(12-15-2015, 07:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Where have I ever said that we shouldn't be allowing the women and children in first?

Where have you proved that no women believe in honor killings?  If honor killings are an accepted part of the culture then wouldn't the women also accept it?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-16-2015, 01:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now I am confused.  Are honor killings about rape victims or Muslims who want to live more moderate lifestyles?

Are you really that dense?  For this particular article, it was about Rape, for discussions about Honor Killing in general, it's both.

(12-16-2015, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Where have you proved that no women believe in honor killings?  If honor killings are an accepted part of the culture then wouldn't the women also accept it?

Are the women actually given a choice in their home countries? Accepting it because you do not have a choice (if you want to live) and flat out accepting it are two different things.

[Rotobeast]

So....
I wonder what would happen if the patriarch of a prominent family were raped ?

[BmorePat87]

(12-16-2015, 01:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: That is correct, it is not just limited to Syria, but it is fairly limited to people that come from the Middle Eastern Countries. So bringing more people here from the ME could increase that number, if we aren't proactive about protecting the girls and informing the families that this behavior is unacceptable in this country.

BTW, that 23-27 annually, is what is reported, who knows how many are actually not reported.

I crunched the numbers.

roughly 3,300 murders occurs between family members in the US. That's 1 in every 96,667 Americans. 

If 27 honor killings occur between the 5.45 million Muslims in the US, that's 1 in every 201,852 Muslim Americans. 

Not sure if I see it as being a significant problem nor do I see reason to suggest non Muslim Americans are any better. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-16-2015, 04:06 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: So....
I wonder what would happen if the patriarch of a prominent family were raped ?

I tried researching this.  Couldn't find a direct answer.
I would guess that if you know who raped you, then you must throw them off of a tall tower to get your honor cleared (like they do with the homosexuals). If you don't know who raped you, then I have no clue what would happen. The hardest part is that it's not really about the mens chastity as much as it is about keeping the women pure for marriage. 

[Rotobeast]

(12-17-2015, 12:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The hardest part is that it's not really about the mens chastity as much as it is about keeping the women pure for marriage. 

Which is exactly why I posed the question. 
I suppose, however the better question would have involved a young son, but I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at.

[*Nately120*]

I just popped by to see if we were white people were hiring hitmen to kill their kids yet.