Teen girl in Columbus killed by police

[BmorePat87]

I figured this would spark the next round of dialogue on the issue.

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/20/989342784/16-year-old-black-girl-who-called-for-help-fatally-shot-by-police-ohio-family-sa

Yesterday, Columbus police shot and killed a 16 year old Black girl, Mahkia Bryant, as she fought, holding a knife, in the driveway of her foster home.

She allegedly had called 911 and reported that some girls were threatening to stab her. At some point she armed herself and fought back. The officer who shot her arrived to the scene as police were talking to a crowd of people in the driveway. Seconds later, Mahkia and another girl ran towards the crowd and Mahkia seemed to push the other girl before running towards another girl who was against a car. The officer yelled "get down" and fired at least 4 shots as she had her back to him, killing her.

This one is especially difficult for me as I have to think about this being one of my students. If this had happened in school, we have to put ourselves in between kids and pull them apart. The idea of just rolling up on the scene and killing a child within seconds would never be an option or a thought.

It's also difficult thinking about the number of mass shooters who get taken in alive. Who are just wounded.

[CKwi88]

(04-21-2021, 08:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I figured this would spark the next round of dialogue on the issue.

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/20/989342784/16-year-old-black-girl-who-called-for-help-fatally-shot-by-police-ohio-family-sa

Yesterday, Columbus police shot and killed a 16 year old Black girl, Mahkia Bryant, as she fought, holding a knife, in the driveway of her foster home.

She allegedly had called 911 and reported that some girls were threatening to stab her. At some point she armed herself and fought back. The officer who shot her arrived to the scene as police were talking to a crowd of people in the driveway. Seconds later, Mahkia and another girl ran towards the crowd and Mahkia seemed to push the other girl before running towards another girl who was against a car. The officer yelled "get down" and fired at least 4 shots as she had her back to him, killing her.

This one is especially difficult for me as I have to think about this being one of my students. If this had happened in school, we have to put ourselves in between kids and pull them apart. The idea of just rolling up on the scene and killing a child within seconds would never be an option or a thought.

It's also difficult thinking about the number of mass shooters who get taken in alive. Who are just wounded.

A fight, holding a knife, and running towards another child.

I'll look for the video, but I'm gonna be hard pressed to entirely fault an officer on this one.

[BmorePat87]

(04-21-2021, 09:08 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: A fight, holding a knife, and running towards another child.

I'll look for the video, but I'm gonna be hard pressed to entirely fault an officer on this one.

This isn't an instance of murder, but should we train officers to not immediately kill a child in that situation? 

[Mickeypoo]

I bet 9.5 out of 10 people who whine and cry about these cops killing these "poor, innocent" people wouldn't last a whole day in some of these neighborhoods. I would LOVE to see some of these pols and "news" anchors put on a uniform and go patrol some of these neighborhoods. Now that is some reality TV I would actually watch!

If you don't want shot by the po po , then make better decisions and cooperate.

[*Nately120*]

(04-21-2021, 09:52 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: If you don't want shot by the po po , then make better decisions and cooperate.

What fair planet do you live on?

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 09:52 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: If you don't want shot by the po po , then make better decisions and cooperate.

You mean like Philando Castile?

[CKwi88]

(04-21-2021, 09:44 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This isn't an instance of murder, but should we train officers to not immediately kill a child in that situation?

In that particular situation? The girl has a knife raised, ready to come down on another person, at a distance the officer is not going to cover. 

I certainly, and unequivocally, believe the de-escalation and non-lethal means should be employed first in almost every situation. Lethal force should only be the immediate reaction if there is an immediate threat to someone else's life. It's worth questioning how it got to the point that it did with multiple officers on the scene, but once it DID get to that point, I don't see another option for the officer. I know I would hate to have not acted and have the girl fatally stab the other.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-21-2021, 09:44 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This isn't an instance of murder, but should we train officers to not immediately kill a child in that situation? 

Haven't seen dont want to. But in general.. from the situation formed in my mind from what i have read about this sad scenario

If a human is big enough to do damage with a knife and I see them lunging at another person with a knife I'm not really thinking about age.

It would be different if I was familiar with these people. Like being a teacher at the school where these kids went. If i'm a cop and respond to a distress call someone saying they are being attacked. then see someone being attacked with a knife when I pull up... 

If we had more ninjas working the beat we would have less reliance on the main weapon being a gun but we don't have many ninjas. And apparently enough guns to accidently pull one. So maybe more guns?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 09:44 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This isn't an instance of murder, but should we train officers to not immediately kill a child in that situation? 

Should he have let her stab the other girl?  She's literally in the act of trying to stab the other person when she was shot.  Pic related.

[Rubekahn29]

Every situation has to be handled on a individual basis. I’m not sure what other options he had at this point that didn’t result in the other girl getting stabbed, and mind you this was after she already went at one person on the ground. It’s a terrible situation, but I can’t just lump this one with some of the more recent ones like others want to.

[BmorePat87]

(04-21-2021, 10:33 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Should he have let her stab the other girl?  She's literally in the act of trying to stab the other person when she was shot.  Pic related.

That's why I'm asking if shooting to kill is the only option. Is it?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-21-2021, 10:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's why I'm asking if shooting to kill is the only option. Is it?

If you mean shoot to wound, they don't do that.  Much harder to hit, and wounded people are still dangerous.

[Rubekahn29]

(04-21-2021, 10:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's why I'm asking if shooting to kill is the only option. Is it?

Probably not the only one, but a good chance any other options leaves the other girl stabbed. Would you disagree with that?

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 10:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's why I'm asking if shooting to kill is the only option. Is it?

In that situation? Absolutely. The officers arrive on scene and the information they have to go on is there is a fight. They see one person with a knife about to stab another person. That is a lethal action and it is absolutely responsible to meet that with lethal force. Tasers and OC spray are far from a guarantee to prevent a homicide in that situation.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 10:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's why I'm asking if shooting to kill is the only option. Is it?

Well, let's examine other possible options.

Grappling or using your nightstick is out due to the distance from the suspect.  Neither would be advisable against a person armed with a knife.  Neither would prevent the suspect from stabbing and potentially killing the victim.

OC spray, again distance is likely a factor.  Also highly unlikely to stop the person from stabbing the victim several times.

Taser, possibly, again distance is a factor.  Also the tasers success rate is not exactly stellar.  Again, highly likely it would not prevent the victim from being stabbed.

Shoot to wound.  Aside from this being against policy it's also extremely difficult.  Hitting a limb is difficult if the target is standing still, much less moving aggressively.  Also, any round that does not strike the intended target is going to hit something else and you have an environment in which a lot of people are milling about.

So, if you're actually concerned about the victim's life then you do exactly what this officer did.  

I'll end with this, the truth ended up being a far cry from the story that the officer just showed up and shot a girl who was simply holding a knife without issuing any commands.  This isn't directed at you, but another poster, who I won't out, posted exactly that last night.  

(04-21-2021, 10:52 AM)michaelsean Wrote: If you mean shoot to wound, they don't do that.  Much harder to hit, and wounded people are still dangerous.

Extremely difficult to hit, especially with an aggressively moving target.

(04-21-2021, 10:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: In that situation? Absolutely. The officers arrive on scene and the information they have to go on is there is a fight. They see one person with a knife about to stab another person. That is a lethal action and it is absolutely responsible to meet that with lethal force. Tasers and OC spray are far from a guarantee to prevent a homicide in that situation.

100% correct.

[Wes Mantooth]

I saw this topic and debate unfold a little bit last night in some reddit threads.

The initial reaction (before bodycam video) of course was to label this cop a murderer. A lot of assumptions were made, and a lot of judgement passed. Then the video is released. That cop may very well have saved that other girl's life.

Outside of letting the other girl get stabbed I really don't see a single viable option the officer had other than he one he took.

[*Nately120*]

All age and race aside I see this as another case of people resorting to violence and getting in over their heads. I don't know what they were fighting about, but I can't imagine it was worth killing or dying over.

[BmorePat87]

(04-21-2021, 10:52 AM)michaelsean Wrote: If you mean shoot to wound, they don't do that.  Much harder to hit, and wounded people are still dangerous.

(04-21-2021, 10:52 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Probably not the only one, but a good chance any other options leaves the other girl stabbed. Would you disagree with that?

(04-21-2021, 10:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: In that situation? Absolutely. The officers arrive on scene and the information they have to go on is there is a fight. They see one person with a knife about to stab another person. That is a lethal action and it is absolutely responsible to meet that with lethal force. Tasers and OC spray are far from a guarantee to prevent a homicide in that situation.

(04-21-2021, 11:03 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, let's examine other possible options.

Grappling or using your nightstick is out due to the distance from the suspect.  Neither would be advisable against a person armed with a knife.  Neither would prevent the suspect from stabbing and potentially killing the victim.

OC spray, again distance is likely a factor.  Also highly unlikely to stop the person from stabbing the victim several times.

Taser, possibly, again distance is a factor.  Also the tasers success rate is not exactly stellar.  Again, highly likely it would not prevent the victim from being stabbed.

Shoot to wound.  Aside from this being against policy it's also extremely difficult.  Hitting a limb is difficult if the target is standing still, much less moving aggressively.  Also, any round that does not strike the intended target is going to hit something else and you have an environment in which a lot of people are milling about.

So, if you're actually concerned about the victim's life then you do exactly what this officer did.  

I'll end with this, the truth ended up being a far cry from the story that the officer just showed up and shot a girl who was simply holding a knife without issuing any commands.  This isn't directed at you, but another poster, who I won't out, posted exactly that last night.  


Extremely difficult to hit, especially with an aggressively moving target.


100% correct.

I appreciate the responses. I tried not to pose any of my comments as suggesting there was any criminality in the officer's response, because I don't believe there was. I understand the rationale.

My perspective as a teacher obviously skews my belief in what are available responses to a situation like this, which is why I asked the questions that I did. I think when the footage becomes more widespread and the idea that this was "revenge" isn't able to hold any water, the dialogue will shift into the direction of response.

Hopefully it will also focus on safety standards in the foster system too and ask why the multiple adults around the girl did not do anything. After she pushes the first girl, one of the adults (the one who says "She is a ***** kid") kicks the first girl in the head as she is getting up. I think some responsible needs to fall on the adults who enabled the fighting and even seemed to join in.

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 11:23 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I appreciate the responses. I tried not to pose any of my comments as suggesting there was any criminality in the officer's response, because I don't believe there was. I understand the rationale.

My perspective as a teacher obviously skews my belief in what are available responses to a situation like this, which is why I asked the questions that I did. I think when the footage becomes more widespread and the idea that this was "revenge" isn't able to hold any water, the dialogue will shift into the direction of response.

Hopefully it will also focus on safety standards in the foster system too and ask why the multiple adults around the girl did not do anything. After she pushes the first girl, one of the adults (the one who says "She is a ***** kid") kicks the first girl in the head as she is getting up. I think some responsible needs to fall on the adults who enabled the fighting and even seemed to join in.

I don't disagree with you. I just try to put myself in the place of the officer. You see one person taking a potentially lethal action against another person and it is your duty to intervene in that instance. The officer doesn't know all of the context, and they don't have time to get it. I've also seen far too many videos where tasers and OC spray don't work.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 11:23 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I appreciate the responses. I tried not to pose any of my comments as suggesting there was any criminality in the officer's response, because I don't believe there was. I understand the rationale.

My perspective as a teacher obviously skews my belief in what are available responses to a situation like this, which is why I asked the questions that I did. I think when the footage becomes more widespread and the idea that this was "revenge" isn't able to hold any water, the dialogue will shift into the direction of response.

Hopefully it will also focus on safety standards in the foster system too and ask why the multiple adults around the girl did not do anything. After she pushes the first girl, one of the adults (the one who says "She is a ***** kid") kicks the first girl in the head as she is getting up. I think some responsible needs to fall on the adults who enabled the fighting and even seemed to join in.

Dude, this exact scenario plays out hundreds of times a day in this country, if not thousands.  You'd be nauseated by the abdication of adult responsibility I've seen throughout my career.  I've gone to apartment buildings or housing projects and found toddlers wandering around all hours of the day, supervised by a 6-7 year old.  But you've definitely hit on something, these kids act the way to do because of the adults in their life, not in spite, or defiance, of them.