Teen girl in Columbus killed by police

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-06-2021, 03:48 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: And here we have the problem with anecdotal evidence. You have two people, both of whom are in a position to know about this topic through their occupations, who are making opposing claims based upon their experiences (or second-hand accounts). It's why policy shouldn't be guided by anecdote.

Very true and I agree.  Especially when one of those using it has a history of fabricating statements, twisting words and flat out not knowing the law, such as having to exit a vehicle when instructed to do so by law enforcement.


You do notice that neither Fred nor his public defender even attempted to address issues such as a mandatory DNA database.  Their whole argument is based on curtailing civil liberties to save lives, you'd think that would be right up their alley.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2021, 11:17 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The interesting, and by that I mean insanely hypocritical, part of this anecdotal evidence argument is that somehow, for some reason, Fred's anecdotal evidence trumps my anecdotal evifence.

Lets forget the term "anecdotal"  and instead concentrate on "hypothetical"


Gun found in a room or car with 4 people. One person claims ownership. How do you know if he is lying?

Police are responding to a shooting in an open carry state. On the way they come upon a group of 4 men with semi-auto rifles. Do police have the right to stop them for investigation even though they are not breaking any laws?  How long could they be detained in order to determine if any of them have any felonies, or misdemeanor domestic assaults, or a current civil restraining order, order of protection, is on bond or supervised release, or has been found to be mentally ill or dangerously ill by a court of law? We all know how long it can take just to run one simple drivers license. It would take forever to check that many different record bases.  But if we required gun owners to have licenses they could find all of that out immediately by just running owners license.

The single biggest benefit of registration and licensing is that it allows law enforcement to be able to enforce the laws we already have on the books. AND IT DOES NOT TAKE GUNS AWAY FROM LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!!!

[Dill]

(05-06-2021, 05:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lets forget the term "anecdotal"  and instead concentrate on "hypothetical"

Police are responding to a shooting in an open carry state. On the way they come upon a group of 4 men with semi-auto rifles. Do police have the right to stop them for investigation even though they are not breaking any laws?  How long could they be detained in order to determine if any of them have any felonies, or misdemeanor domestic assaults, or a current civil restraining order, order of protection, is on bond or supervised release, or has been found to be mentally ill or dangerously ill by a court of law? We all know how long it can take just to run one simple drivers license. It would take forever to check that many different record bases.  But if we required gun owners to have licenses they could find all of that out immediately by just running owners license.

The single biggest benefit of registration and licensing is that it allows law enforcement to be able to enforce the laws we already have on the books. AND IT DOES NOT TAKE GUNS AWAY FROM LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!!!

Seems like an effective point. Doesn't confuse questions of fact with questions of value. Don't need to wait for a study.

DNA registry won't help. 

But a gun registry would.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-11-2021, 12:03 PM)Dill Wrote: Seems like an effective point. Doesn't confuse questions of fact with questions of value. Don't need to wait for a study.

We've already addressed the "value" and it is negligible.  If Fred really cares about enforcing laws on the books then he'd be actively campaigning to recall the DA's or County attorneys in Philly, Baltimore, St. Louis, Chicago, San Francisco, Portland and Los Angeles.  All places were laws on the books are routinely unenforced due to the radical far left positions of the DA.  We literally just had an investigation in which a 17 year old robbed three people at gun point.  Literally pointed a handgun at them, demanded their property or he'd kill them, took their property and ran.  He was arrested for assault with a firearm and three counts of robbery.  All serious felonies.  The garbage human in the DA's office charged him with three counts of attempted robbery.  Not a single gun related charge or enhancement.  So spare me your Fred jock riding about what is or is not an effective point.  You don't know what you don't know on this subject and we all know you're just here to prop up your flailing buddy who's getting his position ridiculed from all sides.

Quote:DNA registry won't help. 

Hahaha, you're literally turning into Fred at this point.

Quote:But a gun registry would.

In maybe 1 time out of 200.  Again, since you keep missing this basic point, the restriction of personal liberty caused, and enabled, by a mandatory registry far outweighs the negligible benefit.  Fred is lying, this is not a common issue.  

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2021, 12:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In maybe 1 time out of 200.  Again, since you keep missing this basic point, the restriction of personal liberty caused, and enabled, by a mandatory registry far outweighs the negligible benefit.  Fred is lying, this is not a common issue.  

So now ypu are just making up random numbers and acting like that proves something?

And since a gun registry and owner licensing do not keep any law abiding citizens from owning guns there is no restriction of any personal liberty. 

Claimung I am lying is meaningless when you can't post anything to prove it.  I am not lying about anything.

[Belsnickel]

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-11-2021, 05:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:

What's he saying,?  I have him blocked.  Probably more of the same crap he's been posting the entire thread, that Dill finds so compelling. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-11-2021, 05:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: What's he saying,?  I have him blocked.  Probably more of the same crap he's been posting the entire thread, that Dill finds so compelling. 

Honestly, for me it's more about the two of you battling it out with anecdotal evidence claiming the other one is full of shit. I bowed out because I've made my point and no one can actually provide empirical evidence one way or the other. It's fun watching all of the contortions of logic, though.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-11-2021, 06:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, for me it's more about the two of you battling it out with anecdotal evidence claiming the other one is full of shit. I bowed out because I've made my point and no one can actually provide empirical evidence one way or the other. It's fun watching all of the contortions of logic, though.

You make a good point.  I suppose continuing the discussion is pointless under such conditions.  I suppose Fred can resurrect the thread when he has actual proof that his plan would work to any degree.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2021, 06:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, for me it's more about the two of you battling it out with anecdotal evidence claiming the other one is full of shit. I bowed out because I've made my point and no one can actually provide empirical evidence one way or the other. It's fun watching all of the contortions of logic, though.

Except I have proven that it can help police enforce the laws already on the books.  Even SSF agrees with me on this.  He is trying to back peddle on how often it happens but even he admits he was not being truthful when he said it would never help.

Now where is your proof of all the damage that will be caused by gun registry and owner licensing?

[Belsnickel]

(05-11-2021, 10:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except I have proven that it can help police enforce the laws already on the books.  Even SSF agrees with me on this.  He is trying to back peddle on how often it happens but even he admits he was not being truthful when he said it would never help.

Now where is your proof of all the damage that will be caused by gun registry and owner licensing?

You have provided anecdotal evidence of your claims. My claim is that there is no actual evidence, i.e. empirical evidence, to support your claim that registration/licensing would have a meaningful impact on reducing gun related crimes. There is no research out there that backs you up and you have yet to provide any precisely because of this. I did not claim that there would be damages/harms with licensing or a registry. I don't follow the same slippery slope that SSF does.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2021, 07:15 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You have provided anecdotal evidence of your claims. My claim is that there is no actual evidence, i.e. empirical evidence, to support your claim that registration/licensing would have a meaningful impact on reducing gun related crimes. There is no research out there that backs you up and you have yet to provide any precisely because of this. 

For about the tenth time I will repeat my request.  .  .  .  

What proof would satisfy you?

The answer is "None".  It is impossible to do any type of empirical evidence on a policy until the policy exists.  So you have created this nice little circular argument where you can sit back and claim you would be convinced by "empirical" evidence while knowing that it is impossible to present any evidence that would satisfy you.

When I get law enforcement to agree that it would help them you still try to ignore their expertise on this issue and claim their opinion is meaningless.

Rememeber earlier in this thread where you claimed your opinion was based on "research and studies"?  I am still waiting to see those also.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2021, 03:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You do notice that neither Fred nor his public defender even attempted to address issues such as a mandatory DNA database. 

How would you know this if you don't read my posts?



Doesn't really matter.  I have discovered that your answers to my posts are the same even when you don't read them.  All you do is ignore all the solid points I make and just call ema liar.


BTW why would I address anything about a DNA database when that is a completely different issues.  Owning a gun is completely voluntary.  It is nothing but a lame attempt at a red herring argument.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2021, 06:48 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  I suppose Fred can resurrect the thread when he has actual proof that his plan would work to any degree.

You have already admitted that it would help.

I got you to admit that you were lying when you claimed it would never help.

[Belsnickel]

(05-12-2021, 09:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: For about the tenth time I will repeat my request.  .  .  .  

What proof would satisfy you?

The answer is "None".  It is impossible to do any type of empirical evidence on a policy until the policy exists.  So you have created this nice little circular argument where you can sit back and claim you would be convinced by "empirical" evidence while knowing that it is impossible to present any evidence that would satisfy you.

I'm glad you have already answered your own question for me. Empirical evidence would satisfy me. Actual research on the effect of gun registration and/or licensing would satisfy me. And studies can be done. Two states and DC have gun registration laws, as well as many other countries in the world. Research can be done, but there isn't any to support your claims.

(05-12-2021, 09:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: When I get law enforcement to agree that it would help them you still try to ignore their expertise on this issue and claim their opinion is meaningless.

Nice attempt to twist my words, yet again. I am merely pointing out that anecdotal evidence is not adequate for creating public policy.

(05-12-2021, 09:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Rememeber earlier in this thread where you claimed your opinion was based on "research and studies"?  I am still waiting to see those also.

Yes, my opinion is based on the research and studies. I specifically said I have read the research and that none exists on the policy you are pushing. You are asking me to provide something I said doesn't exist.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-12-2021, 10:15 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm glad you have already answered your own question for me. Empirical evidence would satisfy me. Actual research on the effect of gun registration and/or licensing would satisfy me. And studies can be done. Two states and DC have gun registration laws, as well as many other countries in the world. Research can be done, but there isn't any to support your claims.


Nice attempt to twist my words, yet again. I am merely pointing out that anecdotal evidence is not adequate for creating public policy.


Yes, my opinion is based on the research and studies. I specifically said I have read the research and that none exists on the policy you are pushing. You are asking me to provide something I said doesn't exist.

Hahaha, you convinced me to stop engaging with him and then you started back in yourself. 


Everyone on this board, except Dill, knows that Fred always argues in bad faith, twists words, claims you said things you never said and never admits he's wrong.  Like I've said for some time, he's one of the most dishonest people I've ever "met", and that includes the thousands of criminals I've interacted with over the years.

[Belsnickel]

(05-12-2021, 10:26 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hahaha, you convinced me to stop engaging with him and then you started back in yourself. 


Everyone on this board, except Dill, knows that Fred always argues in bad faith, twists words, claims you said things you never said and never admits he's wrong.  Like I've said for some time, he's one of the most dishonest people I've ever "met", and that includes the thousands of criminals I've interacted with over the years.

I was bored and hit a moment of weakness. But, I'm about to be away from my computer for most of the day, so it'll be easy to avoid it.

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2021, 10:15 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Nice attempt to twist my words, yet again.

Not twisting your words at all.

Law enforcement admits that registration would help them enforce the laws that are already on the books.

Yet you claim there is "no evidence".

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2021, 10:15 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Two states and DC have gun registration laws, as well as many other countries in the world. Research can be done, but there isn't any to support your claims.

Now you are getting as bad as SSF.

You yourself have pointed out that registration laws for single states are useless because of the traffic of guns across state lines.  Sad to see you abandoning your logic in order to join the "gun nuts".

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2021, 10:26 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hahaha, you convinced me to stop engaging with him and then you started back in yourself. 

A good portion of your posts are still dedicated to me.  So you never stopped "engaging".  Instead you just got so embarrassed that now you have to do it while claiming you are hiding.

yet somehow you know exactly what i have "failed to address".  Hmmmmm.  I wonder how that is possible if you really don't read my posts.