Terror in NYC

[*Nately120*]

(11-01-2017, 04:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I did read where Shumer criticized Trump by politicizing the tragedy too soon. So you and trump are on the same page.

That and we both brag about sexually assaulting women.

[Dill]

(11-01-2017, 06:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Conservatives say it's inappropriate to discuss gun control after a white dude shoots people. Liberals want to start immediately.

Liberals say it's inappropriate to discuss immigration control after an immigrant kills people. Conservatives want to start immediately.

Should we decide now if we want to wait a day or start immediately the next time a white dude goes on a mass shooting spree or an immigrant kills people? Could save us a day of arguing over if we should begin arguing yet.

I don't recall hearing/reading of liberals who want us to wait an appropriate time after an immigrant kills people. Maybe after the PUlse nightclub shooting?

I do recall liberals saying "wait and get the facts" before jumping on the Islamophobia bandwagon. Not quite the same thing.

Trump has also insisted we wait and get the facts whenever white dudes have perpetrated violence, as in the case of Charlottesville.

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2017, 09:43 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't recall hearing/reading of liberals who want us to wait an appropriate time after an immigrant kills people. Maybe after the PUlse nightclub shooting?

...or Shumer's comments about this very tragedy.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-01-2017, 09:43 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't recall hearing/reading of liberals who want us to wait an appropriate time after an immigrant kills people. Maybe after the PUlse nightclub shooting?

Not after an illegal immigrant abducted, raped and then killed a muslim girl.  I thought far left heads would explode for want of knowing how to react to that one.

[GMDino]

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358350-gop-rep-trump-justice-system-laughing-stock-comment-not-well-placed

Quote:Rep. Michael McCaul (R-Texas) said Wednesday that President Trump’s remark about the American justice system being “a laughing stock” was “not well placed.”

During a television interview with CNN’s “The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer,” McCaul noted that the United States justice system has thwarted attacks in the past.


“But to have a wholesale indictment of our criminal justice system – I don’t think – I think that’s not well placed. I think we do operate under the Constitution,” McCaul said.

“Again, the question is whether you know he vetting to let these people in he United States in the first place. And once we’re here, we have due process.”

The remark from McCaul comes after Trump during a Cabinet meeting on Wednesday criticized the justice system in light of the truck attack that left eight people dead in lower Manhattan.

“We need quick justice and we need strong justice -- much quicker and much stronger than we have right now,” Trump said. “Because what we have right now is a joke and it's a laughingstock.  And no wonder so much of this stuff takes place.”

McCaul during the appearance added that he believes terrorists captured on the battlefield should be sent to the military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The suspect in the Tuesday attack, 29-year-old Sayfullo Saipov, is chargedwith providing material support to the Islamic State in Iraq & Syria (ISIS).

[BmorePat87]

(11-01-2017, 09:43 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't recall hearing/reading of liberals who want us to wait an appropriate time after an immigrant kills people. Maybe after the PUlse nightclub shooting?

I do recall liberals saying "wait and get the facts" before jumping on the Islamophobia bandwagon. Not quite the same thing.

Trump has also insisted we wait and get the facts whenever white dudes have perpetrated violence, as in the case of Charlottesville.

You don't think Schumer's criticism of Trump immediately going after immigration law the day the attack occurred can be read as Schumer thinking it was inappropriate for him not to wait before commenting? 

[GMDino]

(11-02-2017, 09:48 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You don't think Schumer's criticism of Trump immediately going after immigration law the day the attack occurred can be read as Schumer thinking it was inappropriate for him not to wait before commenting? 

I thought it was more a criticism of Trumps behavior than saying no one can talk about these things.

Quote:https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/01/trump-schumer-new-york-244435

Schumer seemed to try to avoid making the fight with Trump even nastier. He compared Trump's behavior unfavorably with that of former President George W. Bush following the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, rebuking the president for sowing division after the tragedy.


“New Yorkers, and all of us, compare President Bush right after 9/11, and President Trump right after this horrible terrorist attack,” Schumer said. “President Bush united us. He had us in the White House the next day, saying how we need to work together. All President Trump does is take advantage — horrible advantage — of a tragedy, and try to politicize and divide.”



“This is a tragedy. It’s less than a day after it occurred, and he can’t refrain for a day from his nasty, divisive habits,” Schumer added. “He’s called me names before. I stick by my values. It doesn’t divert me.”

Truly I don't want to talk about immigration after this.  I don't want to talk guns right after the last/next shooting.  But the topics are going to come up sooner rather than later.

Another point is that immigration is only part of the issue in this situation.  The radicalization of a citizen is part of it too.  But the POTUS is a one trick pony and he knows what riles people up.

[Belsnickel]

It seems that what can be learned from recent events in this country is that people are okay with politicizing a tragedy if they would agree with the policy decisions that would be pushed in the aftermath, but are not okay with it when they would not agree with them. That seems to me to be the way of things when it has come to this event, to Charlottesville, to Las Vegas, to any violence in this country.

I've purposely avoided posting in this thread because of how quickly it devolved. I haven't paid much attention to the story, only have seen a few details here and there. I have seen an immediate politicization of it. Not just from this board, but from elected officials as well. One I was particularly disgusted by was deleted shortly after (though I wish I had a screen grab of it). The problem is that everyone makes these knee-jerk reactions with policy claims that will have little to no effect but are certainly headline grabbing and are emotion-based, not ones based in evidence or rational thought. This isn't a problem for just one side, we see this all across the spectrum. Just the sad state of affairs these days.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(11-01-2017, 02:25 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Maybe we all just need a break, it's really getting bad around here. 

It's not just getting bad around here, it's bad everywhere.  Political polarization has increased massively in recent years, and when the majority of people are either hard left or hard right, tense feelings are going to come of that.  The hard left and hard right are all you really see now, so those who lie somewhere in the middle (most of us here) end up getting pushed toward one side (most of us here).

I blame social media, including message boards like this. It's an echo chamber for your own beliefs, and will turn your passive opinions into strong convictions.  

Well....that and the fact that leading Democrats and Republicans refuse to work together.  It's a dick measuring contest now, rather than a commitment toward making the country a better place for the people that elected them.  When your leaders act like that, it's hard to not follow.

[Belsnickel]

(11-02-2017, 10:32 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: It's not just getting bad around here, it's bad everywhere.  Political polarization has increased massively in recent years, and when the majority of people are either hard left or hard right, tense feelings are going to come of that.  The hard left and hard right are all you really see now, so those who lie somewhere in the middle (most of us here) end up getting pushed toward one side (most of us here).

I blame social media, including message boards like this. It's an echo chamber for your own beliefs, and will turn your passive opinions into strong convictions.  

Well....that and the fact that leading Democrats and Republicans refuse to work together.  It's a dick measuring contest now, rather than a commitment toward making the country a better place for the people that elected them.  When your leaders act like that, it's hard to not follow.

It's taking a toll on everything in life, as well. I recommend anyone interested check out the APA's release from yesterday about the stress in our nation.

[hollodero]

(11-02-2017, 10:32 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I blame social media, including message boards like this. It's an echo chamber for your own beliefs, and will turn your passive opinions into strong convictions.  

I consider boards like these to be more helpful than harmful. At least people are confronted with different views and can hear some arguments for said differing views. Something that doesn't happen in echo chambers (like FB groups). Btw. that's not just an US problem, obviously.

It's an internet problem, in the end. These days, everybody can gain the feeling he sees and gets and knows stuff other people just are too stupid to get. Everybody seems to believe something among these lines these days, and the net makes it easy to find people who agree and enforce those sentiments. 
But when the net is used for actual debates, I guess that's a good thing.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-02-2017, 10:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It seems that what can be learned from recent events in this country is that people are okay with politicizing a tragedy if they would agree with the policy decisions that would be pushed in the aftermath, but are not okay with it when they would not agree with them. That seems to me to be the way of things when it has come to this event, to Charlottesville, to Las Vegas, to any violence in this country.

There's some definite truth to this and I don't think there's a public figure that isn't at least partially guilty.  One thing I'd really like to see is people calling out members of their own "team". 

Quote:I've purposely avoided posting in this thread because of how quickly it devolved.

Right here is an occasion I wish you weren't so nice and actually called people out.  The fact that you so rarely do so would actually make doing so mean something.  We all know who you're talking about anyways.

Quote:I haven't paid much attention to the story, only have seen a few details here and there. I have seen an immediate politicization of it. Not just from this board, but from elected officials as well. One I was particularly disgusted by was deleted shortly after (though I wish I had a screen grab of it). The problem is that everyone makes these knee-jerk reactions with policy claims that will have little to no effect but are certainly headline grabbing and are emotion-based, not ones based in evidence or rational thought. This isn't a problem for just one side, we see this all across the spectrum. Just the sad state of affairs these days.

The one that disgusted you, who posted it and could you describe it?  I'm sure someone has it posted somewhere, it shouldn't be too hard to find.

(11-02-2017, 10:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: I consider boards like these to be more helpful than harmful. At least people are confronted with different views and can hear some arguments for said differing views. Something that doesn't happen in echo chambers (like FB groups). Btw. that's not just an US problem, obviously.

It's an internet problem, in the end. These days, everybody can gain the feeling he sees and gets and knows stuff other people just are too stupid to get. Everybody seems to believe something among these lines these days, and the net makes it easy to find people who agree and enforce those sentiments. 
But when the net is used for actual debates, I guess that's a good thing.

I agree.  In addition, over time, you come to see that you agree with someone far more than you disagree.  The unfortunate thing comes when the disagreement is over an issue so big, or sensitive, that it overwhelms everything else.  It has also been fascinating to watch how some people have changed as the political winds have shifted.   I've never gotten vitriol on this board like I have from people who used to agree with me on most subjects but don't appreciate that I haven't gone full "resistance" mode.  Then we have relative newcomers such as yourself who have added some interesting perspectives.  There's a reason we keep coming back, this place does far more good than bad.

[Belsnickel]

(11-02-2017, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Right here is an occasion I wish you weren't so nice and actually called people out. The fact that you so rarely do so would actually make doing so mean something. We all know who you're talking about anyways.

I know that it will be pointed out that I have no quorums with calling out particular members of the board. It is definitely interesting, though, that Lucie and Dino were the first to respond and it was a quick jog downhill from there.

I am trying hard not to enter into the fray on things like that, though, because far too often I do nothing but make the situation worse by attempting to counter erroneous talking points. I'm trying to remind myself that in situations like those, emotions rule the day and logic is pushed aside. These threads are not places for reasoned policy discussions (though the whole board is often not the place for this) and so trying to bring that to the table isn't always welcome.

(11-02-2017, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The one that disgusted you, who posted it and could you describe it?  I'm sure someone has it posted somewhere, it shouldn't be too hard to find.

It was Bob Goodlatte (I only follow a handful of elected officials, primarily the ones that represent me) and one of his staffers (because I doubt it was him) posted a tweet blaming Democrat advertising for the terror attack in NYC. I've done some brief searching for it since, but came up empty and didn't put much effort into it.

[BmorePat87]

(11-02-2017, 09:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: I thought it was more a criticism of Trumps behavior than saying no one can talk about these things.


Truly I don't want to talk about immigration after this.  I don't want to talk guns right after the last/next shooting.  But the topics are going to come up sooner rather than later.

Another point is that immigration is only part of the issue in this situation.  The radicalization of a citizen is part of it too.  But the POTUS is a one trick pony and he knows what riles people up.

So, in his own words, he doesn't like Trump taking advantage to politicize this.

My post is good then.

[GMDino]

(11-02-2017, 11:51 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So, in his own words, he doesn't like Trump taking advantage to politicize this.

My post is good then.

Not on the specific topic of immigration.  Just on Trump's jumping in politically.  At least that's what I read from Schumer.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-02-2017, 11:51 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So, in his own words, he doesn't like Trump taking advantage to politicize this.

My post is good then.

Which, of course, is insanely hypocritical considering the Dems response to the Las Vegas shooting.

[Dill]

(11-02-2017, 09:48 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You don't think Schumer's criticism of Trump immediately going after immigration law the day the attack occurred can be read as Schumer thinking it was inappropriate for him not to wait before commenting? 

Unfortunately that is not something I saw while it was happening. I only heard about it later.

Do I have the time line correct: Trump tweeted out the attack was a "Shumer beauty" and then Shumer responded to the personal attack, calling for Trump to act like G W Bush?  

[hollodero]

(11-02-2017, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I agree.  In addition, over time, you come to see that you agree with someone far more than you disagree.  The unfortunate thing comes when the disagreement is over an issue so big, or sensitive, that it overwhelms everything else.  It has also been fascinating to watch how some people have changed as the political winds have shifted.   I've never gotten vitriol on this board like I have from people who used to agree with me on most subjects but don't appreciate that I haven't gone full "resistance" mode.

Putting the baggage of the word "resistance" aside: Why haven't you? To me, that's one of the most interesting questions surrounding the rise of the Trump. People like you that is, if I may put you in a "people like you" box for once. (It's ok, it's an 100% honorable box.)

(11-02-2017, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which, of course, is insanely hypocritical considering the Dems response to the Las Vegas shooting.

I don't know about "insanely" though. Going after easily available guns is somewhat different then going after people.

[*bfine32*]

(11-02-2017, 12:46 PM)hollodero Wrote: I don't know about "insanely" though. Going after easily available guns is somewhat different then going after people.

kinda hard to go after rental trucks

[hollodero]

(11-02-2017, 12:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: kinda hard to go after rental trucks

Oh that sure would look stupid. Which means what?