The 2 most important positions on offense...QB and LT

[fredtoast]

If we hit on these two first round picks it could transform the entire offense for years to come.

[Au165]

(08-24-2020, 10:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If we hit on these two first round picks it could transform the entire offense for years to come.

The importance of a single offensive lineman has been seriously diminished over the last decade. As pass rushers began moving around more it has become way easier to negate top pass protectors. The rise in pay of the other line positions has kind of coincided with this shift along with just a really talented interior pass-rushing group league-wide that has flipped the idea of pass rush being an edge thing.

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-24-2020, 10:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: The importance of a single offensive lineman has been seriously diminished over the last decade. As pass rushers began moving around more it has become way easier to negate top pass protectors. The rise in pay of the other line positions has kind of coincided with this shift along with just a really talented interior pass-rushing group league-wide that has flipped the idea of pass rush being an edge thing.

While I get what Fred was trying to say, in general, you are right in that any major weakness on the offensive line will be exploited.  For the Bengals, as of right now, that is most likely RT.  

A year ago, it would have been LT with a hodgepodge of also--rans filling in for Jonah and Cordy.  No longer with Jonah healthy.  You could also say it was the "forced in to the starting role" Michael Jordan, as the early starter (Boling) and the later starter (Glenn) were both out and he was forced in to duty.  He was just 21 years old last year.  He struggled early, as did the LT position, but overcame an injury and was at the very least, serviceable by year's end.  

Hopkins started out solid and faded a bit, but is at least solid and will probably look better with better play around him.  

John Miller was kind of "meh" but didn't stick out as a huge issue.  His position was upgraded by the bigger, stronger, XSF.  

Bobby Hart was better last year but still ranked near the bottom of the NFL at RT.  A lot of us were hoping Adeniji or Johnson could push him out of a job, but with no preseason...that isn't very likely.  

In summary, on the offensive line, the biggest glaring weaknesses (LT) has been massively upgraded with Williams.  LG looks to be much better than one year ago.  We don't know as much about RG, but if he beats out Price, then I think he is an upgrade.  

Hart is the big question mark.  Will he finally repay all the trust and confidence?  Can he avoid stupid, untimely penalties?  One thing is for sure, the blocking for the decisive and mobile Burrow should be easier than that of Dalton, who seemingly always rolled out to his right side.   

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 10:27 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Bobby Hart was better last year but still ranked near the bottom of the NFL at RT. 

No he didn't.  Not in sacks allowed.  Not in holding penalties (which some analyst treat the same as a sack allowed).  And not in "Blown Blocks" (according to FootballOutsiders).  He is in the top half of OTs in the league in all of those catagories.  No where near the bottom.

[Wes Mantooth]

(08-24-2020, 10:40 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No he didn't.  Not in sacks allowed.  Not in holding penalties (which some analyst treat the same as a sack allowed).  And not in "Blown Blocks" (according to FootballOutsiders).  He is in the top half of OTs in the league in all of those catagories.  No where near the bottom.

Run blocking?

Pressures?

False Starts?

I would think these might factor in when evaluating the overall play of a RT.

[Au165]

(08-24-2020, 11:32 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Run blocking?

Pressures?

False Starts?

I would think these might factor in when evaluating the overall play of a RT.

 He isn't top 25 in total penalties for offensive linemen and he was tied for 12th in the league with about 15 other players with 4 false starts. Interestingly he had no holding calls last year which was kind of odd.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 11:32 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Run blocking?

Pressures?

False Starts?

I would think these might factor in when evaluating the overall play of a RT.

Then where did he rank in those catagories?

The "blown blocks" I referenced list both "pass" and "run".  Bobby had fewer "blown blocks" than Trey Hopkins.

[fredtoast]

I agree Bobby Hart was HORRIBLE in 2018. You all can go back and read my comments when we gave him that contract extension last year.

But he played much better in 2019. Fans need to give him credit for that. I am not saying he is a Pro Bowler. And if someone else plays better and takes his job I am fine with that. But he is far from the player he was in 2018.

[3wt]

(08-24-2020, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree Bobby Hart was HORRIBLE in 2018.  You all can go back and read my comments when we gave him that contract extension last year.

But he played much better in 2019.  Fans need to give him credit for that.  I am not saying he is a Pro Bowler.  And if someone else plays better and takes his job I am fine with that.  But he is far from the player he was in 2018.

Rep


I really wish someone would beat him out, but I will be satisfied if he continues improving...   for now.

[GreenCornBengal]

I’d argue LT is still a highly important position. Not all teams have the assortment of D-lineman that allows them to move the pass rush around. Many great pass rushers are still focused on that side.

Look at how much Whit’s impact changed the Rams. Just like any position, having a great LT doesn’t guarantee success but it definitely helps more than a great G or RT.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 01:14 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I’d argue LT is still a highly important position. Not all teams have the assortment of D-lineman that allows them to move the pass rush around. Many great pass rushers are still focused on that side.

Look at how much Whit’s impact changed the Rams. Just like any position, having a great LT doesn’t guarantee success but it definitely helps more than a great G or RT.

Almost all the elite pass rushers are still edge players, And LT is still protecting the blindside of a right handed QB.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-24-2020, 01:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Almost all the elite pass rushers are still edge players, And LT is still protecting the blindside of a right handed QB.

This was what I was going to say, the blindside is key. If you have a left handed QB the RT is more important.

If you cannot see the rush coming you cannot avoid it. Jonah being on the left side should be a major improvement and from
what I have been seeing and hearing he is blocking great. Hubbard was throwing everything at him and still couldn't get home
and Hubbard is a very good pass rusher and just looks better this year.

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-24-2020, 10:40 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No he didn't.  Not in sacks allowed.  Not in holding penalties (which some analyst treat the same as a sack allowed).  And not in "Blown Blocks" (according to FootballOutsiders).  He is in the top half of OTs in the league in all of those catagories.  No where near the bottom.

Yes, he did.  One guy that was hosted on the "Locked on Bengals" podcast ranks every position with tiers and Hart was in the lowest tier, and was at the bottom of it.  Had him as the lowest rated guy on our line....which is saying something.  

You can look for a few stats where he isn't dead last or even the bottom tier, but his overall play last year was still near the bottom taken as a whole.  

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 02:02 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yes, he did.  One guy that was hosted on the "Locked on Bengals" podcast ranks every position with tiers and Hart was in the lowest tier, and was at the bottom of it.  Had him as the lowest rated guy on our line....which is saying something.  

You can look for a few stats where he isn't dead last or even the bottom tier, but his overall play last year was still near the bottom taken as a whole.  

All you are giving me is subjective opinions.  I have no idea if this guy has any credibility.  

Any idea what he based his ratings on?

[Bilbo Saggins]

(08-24-2020, 10:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: The importance of a single offensive lineman has been seriously diminished over the last decade. As pass rushers began moving around more it has become way easier to negate top pass protectors. The rise in pay of the other line positions has kind of coincided with this shift along with just a really talented interior pass-rushing group league-wide that has flipped the idea of pass rush being an edge thing.

If you look at weights of players who generated the most sacks, pressures, and QB hits from the past few years you'll see that the majority of them have an edge build (260-280 lbs.) QBs run around a lot too, meaning that a DT might move them off of their spot but you might need a more agile player to chase them down and finish. 

Your comment about a "single" linemen being less effective might be accurate. An elite player can't compensate for the rest of the line if the defense sends its best rushers toward the laggards. I'd argue that it's more important than ever to have 5 or 6 guys who are at least solid in pass protection. 

[Au165]

(08-24-2020, 05:23 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I'd argue that it's more important than ever to have 5 or 6 guys who are at least solid in pass protection. 

This has been the philosophy of a lot of the top teams in terms of paying one super elite LT vs paying a bunch of solid guys across the line.

[BURROWorBUST]

(08-24-2020, 01:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This was what I was going to say, the blindside is key. If you have a left handed QB the RT is more important.

If you cannot see the rush coming you cannot avoid it. Jonah being on the left side should be a major improvement and from
what I have been seeing and hearing he is blocking great. Hubbard was throwing everything at him and still couldn't get home
and Hubbard is a very good pass rusher and just looks better this year.

Hubbard is playing like his hair's on fire!! And Jonah's still holding his own. I like what I see.

On the Bobby Hart question, based on what little I've seen, I think Adeniji deserves a shot at RT. The kid looked good in what tape (from training camp) I've seen of him. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-24-2020, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All you are giving me is subjective opinions.  I have no idea if this guy has any credibility.  

Any idea what he based his ratings on?

Think he is coming back on the show for different position group ratings.  I will send the guys a tweet asking about him.  

[*ochocincos*]

It's very encouraging to hear that Burrow and Williams are "as advertised" in TC so far. Those two were expected to be slam dunk picks, so really hope they both work out.

If they both do, imagine how great this team could be if the right side of the OL also improves a lot this year.

Look out! :andy:

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-25-2020, 01:43 AM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: Hubbard is playing like his hair's on fire!! And Jonah's still holding his own. I like what I see.

On the Bobby Hart question, based on what little I've seen, I think Adeniji deserves a shot at RT. The kid looked good in what tape (from training camp) I've seen of him. 

Hubbard is no doubt. Becoming one of my favorite Bengals. SAM THE MAN!

I really like Adeniji and think he was a steal in the 6th. Very smart, good feet, long arms, versatile etc.

Just want the best to start.