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(10-12-2015, 09:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Please don't insult your intelligence (yes, "your"). I'm clearly talking about PRIOR to the recent ruling that they were. PRIOR to such, they were legal and deemed constitutional. By your logic, claiming they were unconstitutional when they were legally deemed the opposite should be sensationalism. Color me surprised at your hypocrisy.
First off, gametes are NOT stages of human development, let alone "all stages of human development." They are required for human development, but they are not a stage of human development. You do know that gametes are literally sperm and ova, right? As such, the reason the intentional ending of such is NOT murder for the simple fact that the sperm don't turn into babies while in our scrotums (or is it scrota?)
Sorry, I was intentionally using your verbage. Disregard "all" because I used one of your words I didn't intend to use. However, the remainder of my post stands. Gametes are a part of the life cycle and if you don't believe so you need remedial instruction. Without gametes there isn't a life cycle or a successive generation. The only difference between a gamete and a zygote is ploidy. Both a gamete and a zygote are single cells. Both a gamete and a zygote are alive. Both a gamete and a zygote have the potential to develop into adult human under favorable conditions. However, they are in different stages of human development. But, you deny gametes are a part of human development which means you are guilty of the same rationalization you accuse pro-choice proponents. I'm not going to let you choose which parts of biology you will believe and disregard the way Christians do with the Bible.
If you're going to assign individual rights to a single celled zygote which supersede the individual rights of the parent then you need to do the same with a single celled gamete. But, you don't because of your religious beliefs and not because of any sort of rational scientific information. If that is your belief, fine. Live your life according to your belief. Let other people live their lives according to their beliefs. (Unless you want to face murder charges for wearing a condom.)
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(10-13-2015, 11:20 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Sorry, I was intentionally using your verbage. Disregard "all" because I used one of your words I didn't intend to use. However, the remainder of my post stands. Gametes are a part of the life cycle and if you don't believe so you need remedial instruction. Without gametes there isn't a life cycle or a successive generation. The only difference between a gamete and a zygote is ploidy. Both a gamete and a zygote are single cells. Both a gamete and a zygote are alive. Both a gamete and a zygote have the potential to develop into adult human under favorable conditions. However, they are in different stages of human development. But, you deny gametes are a part of human development which means you are guilty of the same rationalization you accuse pro-choice proponents. I'm not going to let you choose which parts of biology you will believe and disregard the way Christians do with the Bible.
If you're going to assign individual rights to a single celled zygote which supersede the individual rights of the parent then you need to do the same with a single celled gamete. But, you don't because of your religious beliefs and not because of any sort of rational scientific information. If that is your belief, fine. Live your life according to your belief. Let other people live their lives according to their beliefs. (Unless you want to face murder charges for wearing a condom.)
Gametes ARE a part of the life cycle, but they are not a stage of human development. They also have not and will not EVER develop into an adult human on their own. This isn't that complicated, but considering you want the option of killing an innocent human being, it's no wonder you'll make up stuff like a sperm cell will somehow become an adult human all on its own.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've gotta drop off all 8 billion of my kids to my wife. 
![[Image: giphy.gif]](http://media1.giphy.com/media/9EmYYw6o9cmsM/giphy.gif)
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(10-13-2015, 07:19 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Gametes ARE a part of the life cycle, but they are not a stage of human development. They also have not and will not EVER develop into an adult human on their own. This isn't that complicated, but considering you want the option of killing an innocent human being, it's no wonder you'll make up stuff like a sperm cell will somehow become an adult human all on its own.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've gotta drop off all 8 billion of my kids to my wife.
Have you ever looked at a biological life cycle before? Life cycles show different stages in an organism's development. The reason gametes are shown in a human life cycle is because they are a different stage of human development during the life cycle. You just doubled down on your own hypocrisy by denying a stage of human development is a stage of human development while accusing others of the same. Furthermore, I never wrote gametes would develop into a human on their own. I wrote "gametes and zygotes have the potential to develop into an adult human given favorable conditions." I wrote "the difference between a gamete and a zygote is the ploidy." The ploidy of a gamete changes due to fertilization which is what separates these two stages of development. Just so you know zygotes "have not and will not EVER develop into an adult human on their own," either. With Jesus Christ being the lone exception. Allegedly. (Although he still needed a mother to develop into an adult human.)
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(10-14-2015, 04:33 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Have you ever looked at a biological life cycle before?
I have. You, however, obviously have not.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:Life cycles show different stages in an organism's development.
Yes, and the "prior to" part is not considered a stage. The first stage of evolution, for example, is not nothingness.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:The reason gametes are shown in a human life cycle is because they are a different stage of human development during the life cycle.
The reason gametes are showin in a human life cycle is because they are a PART of the life cycle, but they are not a STAGE. From everything that I've seen and read (granted, I'm no doctor) is that CONCEPTION is considered the first stage in human development. Yes, gametes are necessary for this stage, but gametes, in and of themselves are NOT a "stage" of human development.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:You just doubled down on your own hypocrisy by denying a stage of human development is a stage of human development while accusing others of the same.
I've tried doing a google search and I've not found a single return that suggests that gametes are a stage of human development. Please, enlighten me with some medical websites showing that gametes are a STAGE of human development.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:Furthermore, I never wrote gametes would develop into a human on their own.
I never said you did, but I was pointing out that zygotes DO which was MY point.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:I wrote "gametes and zygotes have the potential to develop into an adult human given favorable conditions."
Zygotes, yes; gametes, no. Gametes do NOT have the potential to develop into an adult human without being introduced to an opposite gamete. That's why the sperm in my scrotum will NEVER be a separate human being until their introduced to an ovum.
This is basic science. Even my kids know this.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:I wrote "the difference between a gamete and a zygote is the ploidy." The ploidy of a gamete changes due to fertilization which is what separates these two stages of development.
"Ploidy" is the " measure of the number of chromosomes in a cell." The ploidy of a gamete NEVER changes. A zygote has a different number of chromosomes because it's formed from 2 gametes.
oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote:Just so you know zygotes "have not and will not EVER develop into an adult human on their own," either.
Ummm, yes the do. They eventually become embryoes, which eventually become fetuses, which eventually become babies, which eventually become adolescents, which eventually become teenagers, which eventually become adults.
Of course, not all zygotes become adult humans (and not just because they are murdered at the embryonic or fetal stages), but if left alone (and by that I mean, unaborted), they eventually become human beings.
Thanks, BTW, for proving my point of the length pro choicers go to make it okay to kill unborn babies.
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(10-14-2015, 06:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I have. You, however, obviously have not.
Yes, and the "prior to" part is not considered a stage. The first stage of evolution, for example, is not nothingness.
The reason gametes are showin in a human life cycle is because they are a PART of the life cycle, but they are not a STAGE. From everything that I've seen and read (granted, I'm no doctor) is that CONCEPTION is considered the first stage in human development. Yes, gametes are necessary for this stage, but gametes, in and of themselves are NOT a "stage" of human development.
I've tried doing a google search and I've not found a single return that suggests that gametes are a stage of human development. Please, enlighten me with some medical websites showing that gametes are a STAGE of human development.
I never said you did, but I was pointing out that zygotes DO which was MY point.
Zygotes, yes; gametes, no. Gametes do NOT have the potential to develop into an adult human without being introduced to an opposite gamete. That's why the sperm in my scrotum will NEVER be a separate human being until their introduced to an ovum.
This is basic science. Even my kids know this.
"Ploidy" is the "measure of the number of chromosomes in a cell." The ploidy of a gamete NEVER changes. A zygote has a different number of chromosomes because it's formed from 2 gametes.
Ummm, yes the do. They eventually become embryoes, which eventually become fetuses, which eventually become babies, which eventually become adolescents, which eventually become teenagers, which eventually become adults.
Of course, not all zygotes become adult humans (and not just because they are murdered at the embryonic or fetal stages), but if left alone (and by that I mean, unaborted), they eventually become human beings.
Thanks, BTW, for proving my point of the length pro choicers go to make it okay to kill unborn babies.
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(10-14-2015, 06:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I have. You, however, obviously have not.
Yes, and the "prior to" part is not considered a stage. The first stage of evolution, for example, is not nothingness.
The reason gametes are showin in a human life cycle is because they are a PART of the life cycle, but they are not a STAGE. From everything that I've seen and read (granted, I'm no doctor) is that CONCEPTION is considered the first stage in human development. Yes, gametes are necessary for this stage, but gametes, in and of themselves are NOT a "stage" of human development.
I've tried doing a google search and I've not found a single return that suggests that gametes are a stage of human development. Please, enlighten me with some medical websites showing that gametes are a STAGE of human development.
I never said you did, but I was pointing out that zygotes DO which was MY point.
Zygotes, yes; gametes, no. Gametes do NOT have the potential to develop into an adult human without being introduced to an opposite gamete. That's why the sperm in my scrotum will NEVER be a separate human being until their introduced to an ovum.
This is basic science. Even my kids know this.
"Ploidy" is the "measure of the number of chromosomes in a cell." The ploidy of a gamete NEVER changes. A zygote has a different number of chromosomes because it's formed from 2 gametes.
Ummm, yes the do. They eventually become embryoes, which eventually become fetuses, which eventually become babies, which eventually become adolescents, which eventually become teenagers, which eventually become adults.
Of course, not all zygotes become adult humans (and not just because they are murdered at the embryonic or fetal stages), but if left alone (and by that I mean, unaborted), they eventually become human beings.
Thanks, BTW, for proving my point of the length pro choicers go to make it okay to kill unborn babies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_life_cycle
Quote:Life cycles that include sexual reproduction involve alternating haploid (n) and diploid (2n) stages, i.e., a change of ploidy is involved. To return from a diploid stage to a haploid stage, meiosis must occur. In regard to changes of ploidy, there are 3 types of cycles:
- haplontic life cycle — the haploid stage is multicellular and the diploid stage is a single cell, meiosis is "zygotic".
- diplontic life cycle — the diploid stage is multicellular and haploid gametes are formed, meiosis is "gametic".
- haplodiplontic life cycle (also referred to as diplohaplontic, diplobiontic, or dibiontic life cycle) — multicellular diploid and haploid stages occur, meiosis is "sporic".
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10035/
Quote:![[Image: ch2f1.jpg]](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10044/bin/ch2f1.jpg)
"First, in most frogs gametogenesis and fertilization . . ."
http://biology.kenyon.edu/courses/biol114/Chap12/Chapter_12b2.html
Quote:![[Image: FG18_03.JPG]](http://biology.kenyon.edu/courses/biol114/Chap12/FG18_03.JPG)
![[Image: FG18_05.JPG]](http://biology.kenyon.edu/courses/biol114/Chap12/FG18_05.JPG)
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(10-15-2015, 11:33 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Oh, I'm sorry, I've been talking about HUMAN life cycles.
So you believe gametes are stages of development in every species except humans?
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(10-15-2015, 12:41 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you believe gametes are stages of development in every species except humans?
No. Do you believe the stages of development for every species is the same?
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(10-15-2015, 12:41 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you believe gametes are stages of development in every species except humans?
So why not just post a diagram of human development showing the gamete stage?
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(10-09-2015, 04:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I detest the act of abortion as much as anyone; however, I do not classify it as murder. Simply because it is legal.
Change the law; then those that perform the act are committing murder.
Agree here.
why do pro abortion people get so upset when it's called murder? .... Could it be that it hits a part of them morally that they know it's wrong. For that brief second they lash out because of the shame.
If it's not murder then why respond in a defensive posture.... Personally I think it's easy to say your pro choice because you basically are opting out of the discussion and riding the line between life and death, able to sway wherever the debate goes . The Swiss Army knife of positions.
It's quite easy to see there are more people here favor life over abortions. Even the choicers. I understand why they take the choice stance. It's a hairy topic.
One thing that took me from pro choice to pro life was that I asked myself if that was my baby what would I do .... That and there are so many other options that woman could avoid the vacuum. Whether they wanted to abort their baby or even get it adopted.
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(10-15-2015, 01:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Agree here.
why do pro abortion people get so upset when it's called murder? .... Could it be that it hits a part of them morally that they know it's wrong. For that brief second they lash out because of the shame.
If it's not murder then why respond in a defensive posture.... Personally I think it's easy to say your pro choice because you basically are opting out of the discussion and riding the line between life and death, able to sway wherever the debate goes . The Swiss Army knife of positions.
It's quite easy to see there are more people here favor life over abortions. Even the choicers. I understand why they take the choice stance. It's a hairy topic.
One thing that took me from pro choice to pro life was that I asked myself if that was my baby what would I do .... That and there are so many other options that woman could avoid the vacuum. Whether they wanted to abort their baby or even get it adopted.
Why do conservative Christian pro life proponents think it is okay to murder people for having weapons they don't have?
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(10-15-2015, 01:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Why do conservative Christian pro life proponents think it is okay to murder people for having weapons they don't have?
Example
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(10-15-2015, 01:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Example
Every pro life politician who voted for the use of force in Iraq.
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(10-15-2015, 01:31 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Every pro life politician who voted for the use of force in Iraq.
Well this is a thread about abortion. That's killing babies.... Going to war is hardly the same thing. Yes some children are killed in war zones but it's not the mass slaughter.
Show me where we have killed more children in Iraq than we have aborted.
As for why we went to war, it's was supported by both parties. personally I would love to see them revote every three years to renew the authority to go to war. It's annoying that there is no expiration. And when you put limitations on the troops it drags this all out. When we send in troops we need to give them no limits so they can finish it and get out. They don't need to police the country while big business nation builds.
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I aborted a gopher with a stick one time.
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(10-15-2015, 01:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:
One thing that took me from pro choice to pro life was that I asked myself if that was my baby what would I do ....
Actually That is why I'm Pro choice. Though the question is what would I want as the baby? Would I want to be born to a ***** that has a crack addiction? Nope. I understand that's an extreme example, but its only one of many.
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(10-15-2015, 02:54 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Actually That is why I'm Pro choice. Though the question is what would I want as the baby? Would I want to be born to a ***** that has a crack addiction? Nope. I understand that's an extreme example, but its only one of many.
I'd prefer to take my chances.
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(10-15-2015, 01:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Why do conservative Christian pro life proponents think it is okay to murder people for having weapons they don't have?
(10-15-2015, 01:31 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Every pro life politician who voted for the use of force in Iraq.
You certainly know of the convoy that head into Syria, right ?
I know we didn't stop it in time to verify it physically, but intelligence and recon reported transport of chemical weapons.
I know we cannot link that convoy with what Assad used, but it really seems to help line things up.
I know you were probably referring to the whole uranium enrichment program, but I feel as if the chemical weapons should be regarded as WMD's seeing as they could be attached to scuds.
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