The Big Divide Between Biden and Trump Supporters

[Belsnickel]

It seems to be the media they consume: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24614251/240126-nbc-april-2024-poll-4-26-2024-release.pdf

So, I have been hearing about this for some time but haven't made a thread about it or seen anyone else talking about it, so I figured I would bring it up. Based on this polling and the cross tabs discussed, we all know that Trump is ahead of Biden in many ways. One way Biden wins out, and in a landslide? With voters who consume their news through newspapers and network news. Where Trump wins? Social media and cable news (that Fox News bump). Where is the biggest difference? In those that do not follow political news. So the more disconnected you are or the more you consume punditry and opinion pieces, the more likely you are to be in favor of Trump.

I just found that an interesting point in there.

[*pally*]

Other studies have shown that in general most liberals get their news from a variety of sources a across multiple platforms whereas many conservatives use a single source or media type

Trump preys on that when he tells his followers that he is the only one telling them the truth which is why they flock to whichever news platform is his current darling

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-24-2024, 07:51 PM)pally Wrote: Other studies have shown that in general most liberals get their news from a variety of sources a across multiple platforms whereas many conservatives use a single source or media type

Trump preys on that when he tells his followers that he is the only one telling them the truth which is why they flock to whichever news platform is his current darling

Right.... 

[HarleyDog]

(05-24-2024, 07:51 PM)pally Wrote: Other studies have shown that in general most liberals get their news from a variety of sources a across multiple platforms whereas many conservatives use a single source or media type

Trump preys on that when he tells his followers that he is the only one telling them the truth which is why they flock to whichever news platform is his current darling

We've already hashed this BS out in another thread. We get it. You hate Trump. It blows my mind how some of you think intelligent people are zombies. People have a choice every day. Your beautiful Biden is making people flock to Trump, not Trump himself. Your beloved Democratic policies are driving people to Trump. Your losing the minority vote because people aren't falling for the "White man out to get you" bit anymore. Which, I have to ask (probably been asked before):

Why is it Biden is the savior of civil rights and if you don't vote for him you ain't black? Wasn't he the proponent of segregation back in the day? Didn't he support the movement of several senators and Alabama Gov. George Wallace? But if you don't vote for him, you ain't black? Come on man? Why is it so easy for some people to overlook the shit in your yard while condemning anothers? 

Every shithole major city in this country is ran by Democrats. But GOP bad. Good lord.

[*Nately120*]

Shithole this, shithole that. Happy memorial day weekend. Hope everyone who died defending this land so many gleefully call a shit hole rest easy.

Hopefully they aren't buried in any shithole areas my political masters order me to disdain.

[*pally*]

(05-24-2024, 10:01 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: We've already hashed this BS out in another thread. We get it. You hate Trump. It blows my mind how some of you think intelligent people are zombies. People have a choice every day. Your beautiful Biden is making people flock to Trump, not Trump himself. Your beloved Democratic policies are driving people to Trump. Your losing the minority vote because people aren't falling for the "White man out to get you" bit anymore. Which, I have to ask (probably been asked before):

Why is it Biden is the savior of civil rights and if you don't vote for him you ain't black? Wasn't he the proponent of segregation back in the day? Didn't he support the movement of several senators and Alabama Gov. George Wallace? But if you don't vote for him, you ain't black? Come on man? Why is it so easy for some people to overlook the shit in your yard while condemning anothers? 

Every shithole major city in this country is ran by Democrats. But GOP bad. Good lord.

Donald Trump is a sleazeball but what I hate is what he stands for and represents.  His vision of this country is the absolute antithesis of everything I was raised by a conservative military father to believe in.  I genuinely fear for the future if he gets reelected.  

[HarleyDog]

(05-24-2024, 10:27 PM)pally Wrote: I genuinely fear for the future if he gets reelected.  

As people do now under Biden. Let's face it, it's a no win. Neither one of us like our candidates. Or at least I don't. But to me, Trump is the better choice right now. What we have isn't working. It's devastating. In a system that needs to be renewed, we should not be stuck with the candidates we have. But, we have to deal with it and make our choice on voting day.

I don't think most Americans are happy with the choices available. Will the system change? Probably not in our lifetime. So we are stuck bandaiding every four years. Crap, we can't even give an independent debate time. What does that say about it all?

[Belsnickel]

Well, this thread turned to the inevitable rather quickly.

(05-24-2024, 11:05 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: As people do now under Biden. Let's face it, it's a no win. Neither one of us like our candidates. Or at least I don't. But to me, Trump is the better choice right now. What we have isn't working. It's devastating. In a system that needs to be renewed, we should not be stuck with the candidates we have. But, we have to deal with it and make our choice on voting day.

I want to reply to this, because I don't entirely disagree. I will just do my best to articulate why I don't come to the same conclusion you do as far as the choice. Trump does not reflect little-d democratic ideals. Now, if this were just about Trump I would be less concerned, but it's not. The GOP in general (and some Democrats for that matter) have been pushing for a stronger Executive for many years and for lowering the representativeness and accountability of our government to the people. Point blank.

Our government was founded on the principles that the legislature, Congress, was the first and most important branch of our government. They are the the lawmakers and it is the job of the POTUS to ensure their laws are carried out. POTUS presents a budget to them each year saying "this is what I need to enforce your laws" and Congress appropriates funds. It is the role of the people to hold these elected officials accountable for their actions. However, one party in particular works to decrease access to voting at every chance they get because, by their own admission, when more eligible voters are voting, they are less likely to win.

I genuinely and sincerely fear that a GOP government will continue to attack the democratic ideals that this nation was founded upon and we will no longer have a system that will be renewed. That is what their behavior and attitudes tell me. Trump, while not the root cause of all of this, has very autocratic tendencies. He is the charismatic, nationalistic, faux-populist in favor of a strong executive that is the mold of every single despot we have seen rise to power in the modern world.

We have the oldest constitutional government in the world right now. We are an outlier because democracies rise and fall all the time. What this does mean is that we are able to learn from those situations. Study them, examine them, understand what was going on when that government fell. Do you know what that research tells us? It tells us that what the MAGA movement is doing to the GOP and our nation is what we have seen happen over and over again when a democratic nation falls into authoritarianism. Remember me saying in another thread that I am a "government in the sun" type of person who believes in the principles of servant leadership? The reason I am so concerned about this slide away from democratic ideals is because of this. Authoritarian states lack transparency and accountability. Their leaders do not serve the people because they are not accountable to them.

These are the things I think about when casting my vote. Admittedly, this isn't most people. These are deeper issues than most people think of. And don't get me wrong when I say this, but most voters are uninformed on these things. Most voters aren't consuming political news and research. They aren't reading about what happened or is happening in Hungary, Peru, Nicaragua, the Czech Republic, Ethiopia, Turkey, Slovakia, Russia, or any of the many countries currently facing these challenges. They are thinking about what is impacting their daily lives, or at least what they are being told is impacting them. I am thinking about Ben Franklin's words as he exited Independence Hall in 1787 and was asked by a citizen, "what have we got?." "A republic, if you can keep it."

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

A big difference I notice is the hate, vitriol and divisive nature of the left in regards to the right. There's a lot of nasty stuff of the right is being labeled with, just check out the forums and all the nonsense being said about DJT and MAGA, racist, cult, overthrow the government, conspiracy theorists, etc...

The left is being labeled with destroying the country via wanting open borders, no criminal accountability, endless spending, cheating in elections, weaponing the government, shouting down free speech, denying science, etc...


I can sit down and have conversations with just about anyone, but I know there is a fair portion of those on the left would never do so with someone on the right. I cannot say I know anyone on the right the would not have dinner with, or have a civil conversation with someone on the left. It is an odd phenomenon that one side has become so closed off to ideas.


I am certain people who lean a little more to the left might see it slighted the other way, but so is life. At the end of the day, no matter out differences, we all want what is best for our country.



Regardless of your political affiliation, have a great holiday weekend and remember the great men and women who paid the price to let us bicker like children instead of spending more time outside or with loved ones.

[NATI BENGALS]

The number of views on some of these YouTube videos is insane.

I lost a good friend to Trump and YouTube.

Dude couldn’t even read, but he found answers on YouTube and got hooked. I’m sure he has graduated to truth social now. Last I heard his wife and kids left him and he was selling fentanyl. And I’m sure he is still wearing his maga hat and gets his facts wrong on just about every topic.

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-25-2024, 08:02 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: A big difference I notice is the hate, vitriol and divisive nature of the left in regards to the right. There's a lot of nasty stuff of the right is being labeled with, just check out the forums and all the nonsense being said about DJT and MAGA, racist, cult, overthrow the government, conspiracy theorists, etc...

Well no shit. The self proclaimed serial sexual assaulter who hung out with Epstein for a couple decades and made our country a disaster with his shitty leadership during Covid and then lied his ass off and orchestrated a multi pronged attack on our democracy to steal power offends a lot of people. It should offend every American who actually cares about this country tbh.

It’s only been a couple days since he posted the video with the unified reich bullshit.

He is on trial right now for committing fraud to lie and hide the truth from you, me, and everybody else he thought would vote against him if the story came out.

[*pally*]

(05-25-2024, 08:02 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: A big difference I notice is the hate, vitriol and divisive nature of the left in regards to the right. There's a lot of nasty stuff of the right is being labeled with, just check out the forums and all the nonsense being said about DJT and MAGA, racist, cult, overthrow the government, conspiracy theorists, etc...

The left is being labeled with destroying the country via wanting open borders, no criminal accountability, endless spending, cheating in elections, weaponing the government, shouting down free speech, denying science, etc...


I can sit down and have conversations with just about anyone, but I know there is a fair portion of those on the left would never do so with someone on the right. I cannot say I know anyone on the right the would not have dinner with, or have a civil conversation with someone on the left. It is an odd phenomenon that one side has become so closed off to ideas.


I am certain people who lean a little more to the left might see it slighted the other way, but so is life. At the end of the day, no matter out differences, we all want what is best for our country.



Regardless of your political affiliation, have a great holiday weekend and remember the great men and women who paid the price to let us bicker like children instead of spending more time outside or with loved ones.

I have never defriended someone because of their politics. But I have Trump supporters who have cut me out.

I have been told constantly for 8 years that I need to understand the Trump supporters. I need to listen to them. What I never hear is a Trump supporters being told they need to understand and listen to liberal voters.
I’ve been told Trump supporters only vote for him because of the economics and they just put up with the other crap…yet they never speak out against the other crap. I’ve been told everything from the right is coming because of fear.

I’m over it. Trump supporters chose him because he represents everything they stand for. Delude yourselves all you want but the Republicans had other options and they didn’t go there. So they put up a career conman who deliberate plays to the worst attitudes and beliefs of his followers coupled with incessant lies and hateful name calling about his opponents along with a steady stream of media propaganda. He surrounds himself up with unqualified sleazy yes men whose entire job is not to do best for the country but to do Trumps bidding right or wrong. He is propped up by billionaires who know he is easily manipulated and controlled as long as he gets a healthy dose of praise and money and an appearance of power. His supporters are pushing a Christian Nationalist oligarchy that makes second class citizens out of anyone that isn’t white, straight, male, and Evangelical. And consolidates power in a puppet president.

Listen to what Trump says, listen to what this money people say, his entourage, his foot soldiers say. Look at the governments he praises. Do you really want a country run like China, Russia, or North Korea. Trump continually praises the power these leaders have. He covets it and will stop at nothing to obtain it. Read the policy papers coming from places like the Heritage Foundation. Read the rulings from conservative judges. Follow the money because money is what drives Trump.

The left is far from perfect and have their own extremists but that arm of the party is marginalized for the most part. They aren’t the core. And while people don’t agree with Democratic policies those policies aren’t designed to destroy the democracy of our Republic.

Our soldiers didn’t die to support Christian Nationalism. They died to protect our Constitution and freedoms

[masonbengals fan]

The amount of fear mongering, total lack of self-awareness & condescending attitudes from some of you is quite staggering.

Let's all do ourselves a favor and turn that stuff off. Get outside, enjoy your friends and family. Whatever it is you like to do, do it.

Happy Memorial Day to you all.

[Dill]

(05-25-2024, 08:02 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: A big difference I notice is the hate, vitriol and divisive nature of the left in regards to the right. There's a lot of nasty stuff of the right is being labeled with, just check out the forums and all the nonsense being said about DJT and MAGA, racist, cult, overthrow the government, conspiracy theorists, etc...

The left is being labeled with destroying the  country via wanting open borders, no criminal accountability, endless spending, cheating in elections, weaponing the government, shouting down free speech, denying science, etc...

I can sit down and have conversations with just about anyone, but I know there is a fair portion of those on the left would never do so with someone on the right. I cannot say I know anyone on the right the would not have dinner with, or have a civil conversation with someone on the left. It is an odd phenomenon that one side has become so closed off to ideas.

I am certain people who lean a little more to the left might see it slighted the other way, but so is life. At the end of the day, no matter out differences, we all want what is best for our country.

It's our different conceptions of "best" that divide us.

Some of those "labels" you reference above don't seem labels to me. Trump did try to overthrow the government, or at least overturn a valid election with the support of his advisors and party leaders in many states. How is it "nonsense" to say that, and make that a factor in deciding his fitness for office?  

And Liberals do tend to spend more than Republicans. But two questions:

1. What do you think of Cheney's fate--she openly recognized Trump's accountability for 1/6 and was removed from committees by colleagues, then from office by GOP voters. (Please don't respond that voters have that right etc. The question is about the end for which they exercised that right.) A Dem Rep just had his words "taken down" when he listed counts against Trump--a private citizen--and was silenced for the rest of the day. https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/house-democrat-penalized-listing-trumps-legal-crises-rcna153673.  Surely that's fair warning that a GOP presidency under Trump would be like, further extending party power to silence criticism of the Dear Leader?  

2. What's your stance on 1/6? Three options there: Did Biden steal the election, or is Trump telling his followers a BIG LIE about that? 

                                                                  Or is it just too hard to tell? 

The answers to such questions sort the essential differences between Democrats and Republicans right now.  
And the answers go a long way to establishing what is factual description in your post and what is merely "labeling." 

[*Nately120*]

(05-24-2024, 11:05 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't think most Americans are happy with the choices available. Will the system change? Probably not in our lifetime. So we are stuck bandaiding every four years. Crap, we can't even give an independent debate time. What does that say about it all?

This is where you and I completely disagree, it seems...fair play and all, but I don't get this.  If you want an independent to win why would you ever want to support someone who is very good at convincing a lot of voters that our elections are a farce and are not representative of the will of the people?

I want 3 parties and more choices, but the way I see it Biden sucks but he's going to be out/dead in 4 years and there will be another election.  Trump's selling point is that he's the only man who can save this country and he's going to need more power than prior presidents to do so, and our elections are getting in the way of fixing our country because they're rigged against Trump.

I don't see this country being a 3-party one, but I sure don't see how handing the country back to Trump and tacitly admitting that he's the only man on the planet who should be our president is a step in the right direction.  Trump isn't saying "Americans made the wrong choice, and in 2024 they'll fix it" he's saying "Our elections are rigged and I won" so to me that opens the door to "Why even have elections if everyone wants Trump and the only way a democrat could beat him is to cheat?"

Elections are merely opening the door to disaster if you have that mindset.


EDIT - Well go figure Bels sorted it out in a more smart manner.  Kudos.

(05-25-2024, 07:32 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am thinking about Ben Franklin's words as he exited Independence Hall in 1787 and was asked by a citizen, "what have we got?." "A republic, if you can keep it."

Updated quote - What have we got?  A republic, unless people start to think handing our country over to one man will bring back Taco Bell's 99 cent menu.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-25-2024, 07:32 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, this thread turned to the inevitable rather quickly.


I want to reply to this, because I don't entirely disagree. I will just do my best to articulate why I don't come to the same conclusion you do as far as the choice. Trump does not reflect little-d democratic ideals. Now, if this were just about Trump I would be less concerned, but it's not. The GOP in general (and some Democrats for that matter) have been pushing for a stronger Executive for many years and for lowering the representativeness and accountability of our government to the people. Point blank.

Our government was founded on the principles that the legislature, Congress, was the first and most important branch of our government. They are the the lawmakers and it is the job of the POTUS to ensure their laws are carried out. POTUS presents a budget to them each year saying "this is what I need to enforce your laws" and Congress appropriates funds. It is the role of the people to hold these elected officials accountable for their actions. However, one party in particular works to decrease access to voting at every chance they get because, by their own admission, when more eligible voters are voting, they are less likely to win.

I genuinely and sincerely fear that a GOP government will continue to attack the democratic ideals that this nation was founded upon and we will no longer have a system that will be renewed. That is what their behavior and attitudes tell me. Trump, while not the root cause of all of this, has very autocratic tendencies. He is the charismatic, nationalistic, faux-populist in favor of a strong executive that is the mold of every single despot we have seen rise to power in the modern world.

We have the oldest constitutional government in the world right now. We are an outlier because democracies rise and fall all the time. What this does mean is that we are able to learn from those situations. Study them, examine them, understand what was going on when that government fell. Do you know what that research tells us? It tells us that what the MAGA movement is doing to the GOP and our nation is what we have seen happen over and over again when a democratic nation falls into authoritarianism. Remember me saying in another thread that I am a "government in the sun" type of person who believes in the principles of servant leadership? The reason I am so concerned about this slide away from democratic ideals is because of this. Authoritarian states lack transparency and accountability. Their leaders do not serve the people because they are not accountable to them.

These are the things I think about when casting my vote. Admittedly, this isn't most people. These are deeper issues than most people think of. And don't get me wrong when I say this, but most voters are uninformed on these things. Most voters aren't consuming political news and research. They aren't reading about what happened or is happening in Hungary, Peru, Nicaragua, the Czech Republic, Ethiopia, Turkey, Slovakia, Russia, or any of the many countries currently facing these challenges. They are thinking about what is impacting their daily lives, or at least what they are being told is impacting them. I am thinking about Ben Franklin's words as he exited Independence Hall in 1787 and was asked by a citizen, "what have we got?." "A republic, if you can keep it."

You can label one side all you want, but both sides have good ideas and bad ideas. 
Both sides are destroying Democracy with their unwillingness to compromise with each other. As far as i can tell, this started peaking during Bush's terms. 9/11 pulled everyone back together for a while but then right back to doing the same thing again.

You see it all the time, with Bills coming out of the Senate that favor D's policies and get shot down in the House, then vice versa, House R Polocies shot down in Senate.

Somehow both sides have lost the idea that they are supposed to compromise, that's what a Democracy is about. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-25-2024, 04:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You can label one side all you want, but both sides have good ideas and bad ideas. 

I don't say that isn't the case. I prefer a healthy democracy with many ideas being debated in the legislature.

(05-25-2024, 04:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Both sides are destroying Democracy with their unwillingness to compromise with each other. As far as i can tell, this started peaking during Bush's terms. 9/11 pulled everyone back together for a while but then right back to doing the same thing again.

You see it all the time, with Bills coming out of the Senate that favor D's policies and get shot down in the House, then vice versa, House R Polocies shot down in Senate.

Somehow both sides have lost the idea that they are supposed to compromise, that's what a Democracy is about. 

That isn't what a democracy is about. A democracy it about accountability. It is about the people being the ones holding the government accountable either directly or through a representative system like we have. There are several problems, though, that have led to the uncompromising situation in our Congress.

First, there has been an effort to put more power into the hands of the executive. This has been ongoing for a long time, to be honest. While we have the oldest continual constitutional government in the world, it is often viewed by political scientists with three different stages. The first being our original constitution, the second being the post-14th Amendment version, and then you have the post-New Deal era. The post-New Deal era is really where we see the growth of the executive branch kick into high gear and it continued to be that way through the years with more and more authority vested in the hands of the POTUS as the branch grew.

Second, representation in Congress has remained stagnant. We have has 435 Representatives in Congress since 1912. Since that time, we have seen a 253% increase in population in this country and we have added two states. So, in 1912, the average number of citizens each Representative represented was 219,161. Now it is 772,752. Added to that, because of gerrymandering and some of the rules governing these seats, legislators are choosing their constituents rather than the constituents choosing their legislators. Which brings me to number three.

You pinpoint the Bush era, which is correct in many ways. The Bush era was wen we saw a pause in some of the Gingrich style rhetoric, which then got cranked back up to 11 after the good feelings faded. Then, in 2010, the GOP took on the Karl Rove strategy. This was an effort by the GOP to focus on state house races. You see, at the more local levels the Democrats had tended to perform better. This was because the votes were not as diluted and so many state houses and governor's mansions were Democratic leaning. But the GOP made it their mission to reverse that so they could control redistricting and thus give themselves favorable positioning for the House of Representatives. This is why there is such a disparity between the distribution of parties in the House and among the voters casting votes for their Representatives.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is fraudulent. It's working the system, nothing more. But what has resulted in from this trifecta of issues is that we have a House of Representatives that is not actually representative of the people. Each member of Congress has a huge number of constituents to represent, and many of those Representatives have views in direct contrast to nearly half of their constituents because the map was drawn to take advantage of that and because the two-party system makes it nigh impossible to have someone able to adequately represent the people. And on top of it, because Congress has been so deadlocked, each party wants to give more power to the executive when their person is in the office, and complain about executive overreach when it is the other person exercising the same power they imbued the office with and, because of the Electoral College, there is little accountability to be had for the POTUS, either.

A lack of compromise in Congress is not the problem, just as Trump is not the problem. They are both symptoms of democratic backsliding due to policies aimed at limiting the voice of the people. This is not a "both sides are the same" issue because they are not. Only one side, and specifically one segment of one side, is overtly taking actions to undermine our democratic system. There are plenty of Republicans who feel the same way about this that I am articulating here, but they are being run out of the party in favor of the MAGA contingent. They have been throwing up warning flags for years, these more traditional Republicans, but now they are called "RINOs" by those that are willingly abdicating their role in our democracy.

The MAGA movement is a radical, anti-democratic movement. There is no other way to say it. I specifically say the MAGA movement because it isn't conservative, it isn't Republican, it is its own thing and it has coopted the right wing in this country to capitalize on the division that has been growing for the past 30-ish years and the increasing tribalism existing in our politics.

[Belsnickel]

(05-25-2024, 09:36 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: The amount of fear mongering, total lack of self-awareness & condescending attitudes from some of you is quite staggering.

Let's all do ourselves a favor and turn that stuff off. Get outside, enjoy your friends and family. Whatever it is you like to do, do it.

Happy Memorial Day to you all.

I recognize Memorial Day by defending the tenets of our democracy. The ones that those who fought in many of our wars died to protect. I tend to think that defending the ideals that our nation was founded on, that the colonial militias fought to bring to our nation, by discussing the threats we are facing in the modern era is a far better way to honor their sacrifices than grilling some hot dogs and burgers. But that's just me.

And again, I will say that my position on the MAGA movement is not one of condescension, but rather disgust. I don't consider myself better than anyone because we are all equal in the eyes of The Creator, whomever or whatever you believe that to be. I just find it disgusting that so many are willing to abandon the principles this nation was founded on. But I still have brotherly love for everyone, which is why I will never give up my efforts to discuss it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2024, 08:02 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: The number of views on some of these YouTube videos is insane.

I lost a good friend to Trump and YouTube.

Dude couldn’t even read, but he found answers on YouTube and got hooked. I’m sure he has graduated to truth social now. Last I heard his wife and kids left him and he was selling fentanyl. And I’m sure he is still wearing his maga hat and gets his facts wrong on just about every topic.

Sound more like you lost your friend to drug abuse than to Trump.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

As Bel stated this quickly devolved into my side good, other side stupid. I would like to point out that Trump is not the disease, he's a symptom of the disease. That disease being that people have lost faith in the idea that the government cares about or even considers their best interests. Trump represents the anger with a system that is slowly grinding away the middle class that is an absolute necessity for a functioning liberal (in the classic sense of the word) democracy. This is why Biden is losing right now. He can harp away at job numbers and the GDP but the cost of living has skyrocketed under his administration and his answer is either the above or "it's Trump's fault."

Trump represents a repudiation of the political norm, for good and ill. I completely understand why many despise him, but I also understand why many absolutely love him. And it has nothing to do with being an ignorant chud, a racist or a fascist.