The Big Lie: Continuing Fallout

[Dill]

Very early, but some signs the U.S. may be turning the corner on The Big Lie. I still see this as the most serious domestic problem in the U.S. right now, given the potential for disrupting legitimate election processes/results in 2022. 1. and 2. below look to place accountability back at the center of fraud debates. 3. may potentially do that.

1. Rudy Giuliani's law license is suspended. http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/ad1/calendar/List_Word/2021/06_Jun/24/PDF/Matter%20of%20Giuliani%20(2021-00506)%20PC.pdf
For the reasons that follow, we conclude that there is uncontroverted evidence that respondent communicated demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public at large in his capacity as lawyer for former President Donald J. Trump and the Trump campaign in connection with Trump’s failed effort at reelection in 2020. These false statements were made to improperly bolster respondent’s narrative that due to widespread voter fraud, victory in the 2020 United States presidential
election was stolen from his client. We conclude that respondent’s conduct immediately threatens the public interest and warrants interim suspension from the practice of law, pending further proceedings before the Attorney Grievance Committee (sometimes AGC
or Committee).

NYT coverage: Giuliani suspended from practicing law in New York over bogus election fraud claims
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/giuliani-suspended-practicing-law-new-york-over-bogus-election-fraud-n1272266

2. Michigan Republicans' Senate Report on 2020 election systematically debunks Trump/GOP claims of election fraud in that state--rigged Dominion machines, dead people voting, ballet harvesting all quashed.https://misenategopcdn.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/99/doccuments/20210623/SMPO_2020ElectionReport.pdf

Most significant, though is the recognition that some of those falsely charging fraud were themselves perpetrating a kind of fraud. The Chair, Sen. Edward McBroom, warns: "We must all remember: 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof' and 'claiming to find something extraordinary requires first eliminating the ordinary.' Also, sources must lose credibility when it is shown they promote falsehoods, even more when they never take accountability for those falsehoods (5).

Unfortunately, the recognition of fraudulent fraud claims as such, and the role they played in de-legitimizing the election for many MI voters, won't dissuade MI Republicans from pushing for more restrictive voter laws. And Trump is already attacking the Report as a "cover up" https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2021/06/24/trump-gop-republican-senators-fraud-claims-michigan/7778410002/. So a number of MI GOP voters may repudiate it.

3. Pelosi announces formation of House committee to probe Jan. 6 insurrection.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/pelosi-announces-formation-of-house-committee-to-probe-jan-6-insurrection-2021-06-24

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday announced the establishment of a new committee to investigate the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. "It is imperative that we establish the truth of that day and ensure that an attack of that kind cannot happen and that we root out the causes of it all," the California Democrat told reporters during a briefing. Pelosi earlier this week signaled that she was poised to create the committee after Senate Republicans blocked the creation of an independent probe.

The Senate may block accountability, but the House may step up. If they were able to hold seven Benghazi hearings to produce a giant nothingburger, they should be able to get at least ONE for an insurrection which breached the Capitol at the moment power was to be peacefully transferred.

On the down side, MI and PA are still pushing for "audits" like the one conducted by Cyber Monkeys in AZ. And the Department of Homeland Security has concerns about the NEW conspiracy theory, namely that Trump will be re-instated in August.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/24/dhs-concerned-trump-reinstatement-496050

[*Nately120*]

I still don't understand why the conspiracy crowd conpletely ignored the slam dunk claim that Trump will be reinstated on July 4th.

[Dill]

(06-25-2021, 08:09 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I still don't understand why the conspiracy crowd conpletely ignored the slam dunk claim that Trump will be reinstated on July 4th.

I think that would make more sense in symbolic terms--on the very day it separated from Great Britain, the U.S. declares independence from the liberals and Dems, who were merely an illegal, occupying power. America would be back in the hands of Americans, not "the left."

But Mike Lindell, the pillow guy, seems the most visible voice driving this conspiracy, and his assumption is that "something" will be found in the AZ Cyber Monkey audit, that then can be folded into a lawsuit that makes its way to the Supreme Court, where the judges will rule 9-0 against Biden. I guess the time line is such that that can't be done before July. But he assured Steve Bannon in a recent interview that Trump will be back.

https://www.newsweek.com/mike-lindell-trump-president-august-supreme-court-conspiracy-qanon-1597147

[*Nately120*]

(06-25-2021, 12:07 PM)Dill Wrote: I think that would make more sense in symbolic terms--on the very day it separated from Great Britain, the U.S. declares independence from the liberals and Dems, who were merely an illegal, occupying power. America would be back in the hands of Americans, not "the left."

But Mike Lindell, the pillow guy, seems the most visible voice driving this conspiracy, and his assumption is that "something" will be found in the AZ Cyber Monkey audit, that then can be folded into a lawsuit that makes its way to the Supreme Court, where the judges will rule 9-0 against Biden. I guess the time line is such that that can't be done before July. But he assured Steve Bannon in a recent interview that Trump will be back.

https://www.newsweek.com/mike-lindell-trump-president-august-supreme-court-conspiracy-qanon-1597147

Well, the longer Trump is out of office the more donations they can get to "look into the election."  I assume they'll keep this "victory is just over the next hill, don't stop donating and surrender now!" Stuff going until the 2024 election where the message will focus on how rigged the incoming election will be and how rigged the 2022 midterms were. 

[Mer]

It doesn't matter which side you're on, we should all want fair, legal elections. And anybody that doesn't see last November as an issue is lying to themselves.

[Au165]

(06-25-2021, 01:23 PM)Mer Wrote: It doesn't matter which side you're on, we should all want fair, legal elections. And anybody that doesn't see last November as an issue is lying to themselves.

You do realize Trump claimed there was fraud in the 2016 election right? Why was there fraud you ask? Well because he lost the popular vote and since that couldn't be true there must have been fraud. Trump set up a commission to find said fraud...and when they found none he disbanded them and moved on without saying anything. It was a sign four years ago he would make the same claims if he lost, which he did. At this point the DoJ, FBI, and many states and courts have looked at the claims of "fraud" and there has been no proof found. In reality even Trump's lawsuits never actually claimed fraud, even though his surrogates said in public they did, instead they tried to use technicalities because proving fraud in court is very hard and they could not do so. If he ACTUALLY believed there was fraud his lawsuits would have said such but they didn't and that is ALL that you need to know in terms of if the Trump campaign actually believed what they said outloud.

You are right, people are lying to themselves but it's the people who can't accept the dude who claims he was cheated every time he has lost at anything in life once again claimed he was cheated because he lost. The irony here is saying you want "fair" elections, while the Republican party is working at warp speed to try to keep as many people from voting as possible. There is nothing "fair" about restricting voter access, the whole point of the tactic is to gain an advantage not to ensure that the democratic processes in place are available for every American to actually participate in.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2021, 02:09 PM)Au165 Wrote: You do realize Trump claimed there was fraud in the 2016 election right? 

So did Hillary, if we're being fair and comprehensive.

[Au165]

(06-25-2021, 02:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So did Hillary, if we're being fair and comprehensive.

I believe she didn't claimed voter fraud but rather interference by an outside state, which we do know is true to at least some degre. I get you are doing your "whataboutisim" schtick, but the fact remains even when winning he claimed voter fraud and so it was no surprise he lost and claimed it.

Let's get you on record though, do you believe massive, and don't forget it had to be HIGHLY coordinated, voter fraud was at play in the 2020 election? This will determine very quickly if you are worth continuing discussing pretty much anything with lol.

[*Nately120*]

(06-25-2021, 01:23 PM)Mer Wrote: It doesn't matter which side you're on, we should all want fair, legal elections. And anybody that doesn't see last November as an issue is lying to themselves.

A good initial rule of thumb for people wanting fairness is to not involve Donald Trump. 

[Dill]

(06-25-2021, 01:23 PM)Mer Wrote: It doesn't matter which side you're on, we should all want fair, legal elections. And anybody that doesn't see last November as an issue is lying to themselves.

Well "both sides" see an "issue" here. 

They just see different issues. 

One side sees that Trump and the GOP continually generating fraudulent claims about a stolen election is a threat to the ability of every state to legitimize election results. I'd be lying to myself if I didn't recognize that, without that ability, fair and legal elections won't be regarded as such even when they are fair and legal.

The other side sees, well, its hard to be sure. A majority of the GOP, view the election as stolen. But on what basis? 

Virtually all the evidence that might have originally led hyperskeptics to doubt the election has been debunked in courts or by the GOP itself (see #s 1 and 2 above). And yet the number of GOP who still believe the election was stolen has held steady since January, when a group breached the Capitol to stop the lie and execute "peoples' justice" on Trump's VP. 

This state of affairs continues in part because new unfounded conspiracies have been created to fill the vacuum left by the old.

One of the most recent examples is "Italygate," the conspiracy theory that U.S. election machines were manipulated from Italy through a satellite link, to shift votes from Trump to Biden. There was no concrete evidence for such manipulation, just one woman's verbal assurance at a Mara Lago Christmas party; might as well have been the same Jewish lasers that caused last year's CA wildfires. Yet Trump's Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, pushed that conspiracy on the DOJ, demanding investigation. The DOJ, to its credit, declined. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/08/fact-check-italygate-claims-electoral-fraud-rome-baseless/6567335002/

All of which suggests that "lying to oneself" at this point comprises the refusal to admit that the entire premise of "the steal" rests on nothing but the word of Trump, some GOP officials and supporters, and "journalists" committed to Trump. They make claims which have to be based upon evidence, which can be examined and tested, and yet in every case, they have failed the test. 

The desire to keep one's belief, despite the factual controversion of all supposed evidence, is what keeps the GOP generating new conspiracy theories. As Nately points out above, the conspiracy has become the basis for Trump's continued legitimacy in the eyes of his base, and motive to keep donating to Trump--not to mention the basis for his continuing control over the U.S. Senate.

[*Nately120*]

(06-25-2021, 02:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So did Hillary, if we're being fair and comprehensive.

Makes more sense for a loser to whine.  Trump complained about the primaries he won being rigged, the election he won being rigged, the midterms bring rigged, and the election he lost bring rigged.  The guy cries foul before, during, and after every election he's involved in. It's his chief strategy and he's only lost once despite 100% of the votes He's been involved in being the most rigged thing ever. 

Every NFL fan base thinks the nfl hates them and is rigged against them. When Bengals or Lions Or Raiders fans say it I roll my eyes.  When Steelers Or Patriots or Cowboys fans say it I get annoyed.  

[Dill]

(06-25-2021, 02:20 PM)Au165 Wrote: I believe she didn't claimed voter fraud but rather interference by an outside state, which we do know is true to at least some degre. I get you are doing your "whataboutisim" schtick, but the fact remains even when winning he claimed voter fraud and so it was no surprise he lost and claimed it.

Let's get you on record though, do you believe massive, and don't forget it had to be HIGHLY coordinated, voter fraud was at play in the 2020 election? This will determine very quickly if you are worth continuing discussing pretty much anything with lol.

If I understand your original point, it was that claiming voter fraud ahead of and after elections, win or lose, is a pattern with Trump. It is not with Hillary, so there is no "both sides do it" here, even if Hillary groused about losing.

As recently as 10/09/20 she was claiming 2016 was "not on the level." It's unclear what that might include. 

I agree there was something not on the level, but I have come to think that means that millions more Americans than heretofore suspected were/are capable of bad judgment and susceptible to manipulation. That Trump proved unfit, as Hillary correctly saw, has not much affected his original level of support. That is still the bigger problem. The Russians are not responsible for the GOP bases' continued support for Trump. 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html

“There’s just a lot that I think will be revealed. History will discover,” the Democratic Party’s 2016 presidential nominee continued. “But you don’t win by 3 million votes and have all this other shenanigans and stuff going on and not come away with an idea like, ‘Whoa, something’s not right here.’ That was a deep sense of unease.”

Clinton also offered copious criticism of President Trump, saying she warned the country about her former rival, and “it was even worse than I thought it was.”

“I really did feel sometimes like the tree falling in the forest. I believed he was a puppet of Putin. I believed that there was relevant, important information in his tax returns. I believed he did not have the temperament to be president, he was unfit—not a partisan comment, but an assessment of him,” the former secretary of state said.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2021, 02:20 PM)Au165 Wrote: I believe she didn't claimed voter fraud but rather interference by an outside state, which we do know is true to at least some degre. I get you are doing your "whataboutisim" schtick, but the fact remains even when winning he claimed voter fraud and so it was no surprise he lost and claimed it.

Let's get you on record though, do you believe massive, and don't forget it had to be HIGHLY coordinated, voter fraud was at play in the 2020 election? This will determine very quickly if you are worth continuing discussing pretty much anything with lol.

She claimed the election was fraudulent.  No schtick here, I just like to point out when there's an element of hypocrisy.  I can't remember people here lambasting Hillary or Stacey Abrams for claiming elections were fraudulent, and thus damaging our democracy.  As to degree, I would absolutely agree that their efforts were not as extensive or extreme as Trump's.  However, if we're talking about damaging our democracy by questioning the integrity of our electoral process, then all three are guilty of this.

As to your question, anyone who's actually read my posts would be able to easily answer this.  No, I don't not think there was massive election fraud, or fraud of any kind beyond the usual that is conducted by both parties.

(06-25-2021, 02:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Makes more sense for a loser to whine.  Trump complained about the primaries he won being rigged, the election he won being rigged, the midterms bring rigged, and the election he lost bring rigged.  The guy cries foul before, during, and after every election he's involved in. It's his chief strategy and he's only lost once despite 100% of the votes He's been involved in being the most rigged thing ever. 

Every NFL fan base thinks the nfl hates them and is rigged against them. When Bengals or Lions Or Raiders fans say it I roll my eyes.  When Steelers Or Patriots or Cowboys fans say it I get annoyed.  

Yeah, Trump is an ass, which is something I've always said about him.  He's petulant and honestly has the emotional maturity of a 7th grader.

[*Nately120*]

I can't see the future, but if the election being stolen is Trump's key political strategy and only 60% of Republicans at best believe him he might have a hard time in 2024.  I guess the other 40% could say he's lying but they don't care.  Still, if 6 out of 10 people in your own party support your main talking point you might not get the nod for the election.

Tine Will tell, but a 78 year old Trump crying foul to the delight of 6 out if 10 Republicans paired with a different VP after his prior one turned traitor might not be a slam dunk ticket.

This doesn't take into account 3.5 years of people promising Trump will return to power every 2 months either.  Stuff got weird, and the question is for how long. 

[Au165]

(06-25-2021, 02:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As to your question, anyone who's actually read my posts would be able to easily answer this.  No, I don't not think there was massive election fraud, or fraud of any kind beyond the usual that is conducting by both parties.

Then why come in with the "whataboutisim'? It's a thread about a lie which his past behavior, the behavior you quoted and wanted to turn on someone not relevant to this thread, forewarned the current stunt would occur. You coming in to throw the random "she did it too" is part of the issue being dealt with right now. You yourself agree that there was no fraud, so trying to derail a conversation with a "other side did it too!" comment helps with furthering of these lies through obfuscation of the bigger point. Obviously, you aren't single handily changing anyones minds on this topic but my bigger gripe here is that this behavior only allows these kinds of things to perpetuate further when they occur at the larger scale we have seen in the media and by various politicians. 

This whole "fraud" narrative is simply a catalyst for rampant voter suppression and I am just over it. All the laws are being passed under the guise of it, and as you even point out since it doesn't actually exist the whole movement is in bad faith and an obvious strategical tactic that is about as anti democratic as one can be.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-25-2021, 02:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So did Hillary, if we're being fair and comprehensive.

She also said in this in regards to the 2020 election...

“Joe Biden should not concede under any circumstances, because I think this is going to drag out, and eventually I do believe he will win if we don't give an inch, and if we are as focused and relentless as the other side is,”

“We've got to have a massive legal operation, I know the Biden campaign is working on that"

Clinton said she thinks that the only way Trump could win re-election is “by either suppressing or stopping voting, or outright intimidating people into feeling that they have to go with the strong guy to stand up against all these threats that Trump is going to gin up to scare people.”

Then you have Stacy Abrams in 2018...

"You see, I'm supposed to say nice things and accept my fate. They will complain that I should not use this moment to recap what was done wrong or to demand a remedy," she said. "And I will not concede because the erosion of our democracy is not right."

Here's Abrams comments again, almost a year after her defeat...

“Concession in the political space is an acknowledgment that the process was fair,” she told Yahoo News. “And I don't believe that to be so.”

I've said this before but I find it both incredibly strange and completely disingenous when people pick and choose when to be outraged, concerned, or offended.  It sure would be nice if everyone took a consistent stance on things like this.  And until that happens, can we at least all agree that there is hypocracy abound?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2021, 03:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: Then why come in with the "whataboutisim'? It's a thread about a lie which his past behavior, the behavior you quoted and wanted to turn on someone not relevant to this thread, forewarned the current stunt would occur. You coming in to throw the random "she did it too" is part of the issue being dealt with right now. You yourself agree that there was no fraud, so trying to derail a conversation with a "other side did it too!" comment helps with furthering of these lies through obfuscation of the bigger point. Obviously, you aren't single handily changing anyones minds on this topic but my bigger gripe here is that this behavior only allows these kinds of things to perpetuate further when they occur at the larger scale we have seen in the media and by various politicians. 

Oh, the answer to this is simple.  I'd like to see consistency in the opinions of others, not just outrage when someone I don't like does "X".  Did we ever hear anything about Clinton or Abrams "damaging our democracy" by claiming election fraud?  What person of prominence has called those two out for the exact same types of statement about the integrity of our election process?  You want your opinion or position to hold weight, keep it consistent.  I'd counter your argument by pointing out that this level of hypocrisy only serves to deepen the divide in this country, which is something we'd both like to avoid, yes?

[*Nately120*]

I'll hand it to democrats for at least moving away from Hillary after her loss rather than making "Rigged 2016, Hillary will be president in 2020 if not sooner" their focus for years.

They got their spinoff president in the end, anyways.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2021, 03:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll hand it to democrats for at least moving away from Hillary after her loss rather than making "Rigged 2016, Hillary will be president in 2020 if not sooner" their focus for years.  

They got their spinoff president in the end, anyways.

Eh, Hillary was toast after that regardless.  She was deeply unpopular (almost as much as Kamal Harris    ), so much so that she lost to possibly to most inexperienced candidate in US history.  Plus the Clinton's come with a ton of baggage at this point.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-25-2021, 03:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll hand it to democrats for at least moving away from Hillary after her loss rather than making "Rigged 2016, Hillary will be president in 2020 if not sooner" their focus for years.  

They got their spinoff president in the end, anyways.

I will applaud them for that too.  Maybe the Republicans can take a page out of their book and go right into the impeachment stage of sore losing.