The Democratic Party has moved too far to the left.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I've been saying this for a long time, it seems finally CNN is waking up to this reality as well.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/democratic-party-left-liberal-q-poll/index.html?no-st=1572049458

Of course extreme positions tend to move to the center once the primary is over, but will it haunt whomever earns the nomination in the general election? This article seems to indicate that the answer is yes.

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2019, 01:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've been saying this for a long time, it seems finally CNN is waking up to this reality as well.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/democratic-party-left-liberal-q-poll/index.html?no-st=1572049458

Of course extreme positions tend to move to the center once the primary is over, but will it haunt whomever earns the nomination in the general election?  This article seems to indicate that the answer is yes.

I think when Obama said it folks woke up.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-25-2019, 02:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think when Obama said it folks woke up.

I agree, that was a turning point for many.  I think Obama was also being pragmatic, he knows it's only a matter of time before they come for him.  Hell, I see tons of anti-Obama comments on sites like The Guardian already.  He's far too moderate for today's Democratic party.

[CJD]

47% say they have moved too far left, which means 53% did not say this.

So we should be good in the General.

[6andcounting]

I think Trump moving the GOP to the right on some issues (certainly not gay marriage, prison reform and others) has gotten him so loved by Republican voters (something like 95% approval rating) because people are sick of the status quo and want change. That same desire for change among the left is the exact reason why the Dems have moved further to the left. It's just natural that if you're liberal or conservative your idea of changing the status quo is moving more toward the side your already on. What people miss is that both sides agree the status quo needs changed.

When it comes to the national election, Trump had the advantage because he played up being an outsider to politics and because overall he went with populist policies. He can't really play the outsider card anymore, but compared to everybody but Biden, his populist polices are far more likely to attract votes than any other Democrat on the ticket. Of course, Biden has other issues vs Trump, but that's probably for another thread.

[GMDino]

(11-25-2019, 03:33 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: 47% say they have moved too far left, which means 53% did not say this.

So we should be good in the General.

To me what is "left"?

Wanting clean air and health care and better wages?

Where is the "center" now?  So far to the right that anything left of it looks "too far"?

[CJD]

(11-25-2019, 03:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: To me what is "left"?

Wanting clean air and health care and better wages?

Where is the "center" now?  So far to the right that anything left of it looks "too far"?

I think Medicare for All and the Green New Deal are the main things.

Americans are not used to reasonable health care, so I imagine being offered it triggers a "if it seems too good to be true, it is" reaction.

That is what I've gathered from my parents and parents in law, who want health care to improve but do not want to dismantle the current system (the one with private insurers whose only purpose has transformed into skimming money off the top of each time you go to the doctor).

[GMDino]

(11-25-2019, 03:51 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think Medicare for All and the Green New Deal are the main things.

Americans are not used to reasonable health care, so I imagine being offered it triggers a "if it seems too good to be true, it is" reaction.

That is what I've gathered from my parents and parents in law, who want health care to improve but do not want to dismantle the current system (the one with private insurers whose only purpose has transformed into skimming money off the top of each time you go to the doctor).

I find myself in the tent with medicare for all plus a private option.

The amount my taxes go up will be offset by the amount I save on copays, deductible, etc.

But yeah if people seem to think clean air and health care is "too far left" we have bigger problems.

[CJD]

(11-25-2019, 04:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: I find myself in the tent with medicare for all plus a private option.

The amount my taxes go up will be offset by the amount I save on copays, deductible, etc.

But yeah if people seem to think clean air and health care is "too far left" we have bigger problems.

There are a fair amount of people who have not looked into the Green New Deal outside of "They're gonna take away your cows!" and then there are other people who just think the idea of improving our environment is either unnecessary or too expensive.

There's no party that believes in fiscal conservatism, but there are voters who still think the Government should not regulate or pay for anything (basically, libertarians just don't want a government to exist). 

And then there are just your garden variety climate change deniers, like our President.

To those people, the Democratic party's stance on climate change would definitely be too far left.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-25-2019, 03:51 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think Medicare for All and the Green New Deal are the main things.

Americans are not used to reasonable health care, so I imagine being offered it triggers a "if it seems too good to be true, it is" reaction.

That is what I've gathered from my parents and parents in law, who want health care to improve but do not want to dismantle the current system (the one with private insurers whose only purpose has transformed into skimming money off the top of each time you go to the doctor).

Add universal basic income, gun confiscation, gutting the criminal justice system and reparations to that list.  I think there's also a lot of room within medicare for all and environmentally friendly legislation as well.  For example medicare for all with no private option is a left leaning version of this idea while being able to keep private insurance is less so.  The Green New Deal is a joke though, anyone using that as a foundation for their plans is already on thin ice.


EDIT: Add paying for the college degrees of others to that list as well.

[CJD]

(11-25-2019, 04:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Add universal basic income, gun confiscation, gutting the criminal justice system and reparations to that list.  I think there's also a lot of room within medicare for all and environmentally friendly legislation as well.  For example medicare for all with no private option is a left leaning version of this idea while being able to keep private insurance is less so.  The Green New Deal is a joke though, anyone using that as a foundation for their plans is already on thin ice.

eh, I've only heard one politician mention gun confiscation and Beto is a dumbass. 

The Green New Deal, as I understand it, is just a framework proposal with goals rather than defined policy information. More just an approach to environmental (And economic) reform, like a carbon tax. Unless they've released more information about it in the last few months. Why do you find it to be a joke?

Reparations is one of those "it'd be great, but the specifics of such a policy would be difficult to define without offending or alienating some portion of the group." For example, should Reparations explicitly apply to those who are descendants of slaves? Or should it take into account the lost economic growth to the black community as a result of redlining and other racist policies well into the 1900s? It's something to strive towards, but I sincerely doubt any Democrat will ever get to the point where they're proposing a realistic law or form of legislation that is actionable. I think the most anyone has proposed is "let's look into if it's even possible."

Universal Basic Income is controversial, but I get why Andrew Yang is pitching it. There needs to be some kind of response to the fact that jobs are slowly but surely being replaced by automation. That'll leave a lot of blue collar workers with nowhere to go unless they can retrain and potentially move to another area where more jobs are available.

I'm not sure what you mean by gutting criminal reform though.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-25-2019, 04:35 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: eh, I've only heard one politician mention gun confiscation and Beto is a dumbass.

You've never heard of Corey Booker and Kamala Harris? 

Quote:The Green New Deal, as I understand it, is just a framework proposal with goals rather than defined policy information. More just an approach to environmental (And economic) reform, like a carbon tax. Unless they've released more information about it in the last few months. Why do you find it to be a joke?

Because some of their stated objectives are virtually impossible.

Quote:Reparations is one of those "it'd be great, but the specifics of such a policy would be difficult to define without offending or alienating some portion of the group." For example, should Reparations explicitly apply to those who are descendants of slaves? Or should it take into account the lost economic growth to the black community as a result of redlining and other racist policies well into the 1900s? It's something to strive towards, but I sincerely doubt any Democrat will ever get to the point where they're proposing a realistic law or form of legislation that is actionable. I think the most anyone has proposed is "let's look into if it's even possible."

It's a hornet's nest, I agree.  Elizabeth Warren is pushing this hard now.

Quote:Universal Basic Income is controversial, but I get why Andrew Yang is pitching it. There needs to be some kind of response to the fact that jobs are slowly but surely being replaced by automation. That'll leave a lot of blue collar workers with nowhere to go unless they can retrain and potentially move to another area where more jobs are available.

I agree about automation, which is why I find the constant importing of ultra cheap labor to be utterly contradictory to this stated concern.  Oh, I suppose we can add abolishing ICE and borders to the list as well.

Quote:I'm not sure what you mean by gutting criminal reform though.

The  essential decriminalization of non-violent crimes.  Check out the Philly DA.  

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/magazine/larry-krasner-philadelphia-district-attorney-progressive.html

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/philadelphia-district-attorney-larry-krasner-criminal-justice-reform.html

Check out Seattle.

https://komonews.com/news/local/komo-news-special-seattle-is-dying

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogervaldez/2019/04/08/seattle-isnt-dying-yet-but-the-latest-debate-might-kill-it/#591da8bd3f25


I can tell you first hand that crime in LA is rising and the word on the street is that the police, probation and parole "can't do shit to us".  I have friends who are parole agents and they literally aren't allowed to violate their parolees.  I've railed against AB109 in the past.  I could go into insane detail on this front but I'm literally about to leave to me sister's for the holiday.  

On that note, everyone enjoy their Thanksgiving holiday!

[Belsnickel]

Is the party too far to the left, or has the Overton Window shifted to the right in the past few decades in a way that makes it appear that progressive ideas are extreme? Some of the policies mentioned in this thread have been favored by one or both parties at some point prior to the Reagan years.

In all seriousness, though, there are a lot of things at play in all of this. But the shifting Overton Window has a large role to play in this perception.

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2019, 03:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: To me what is "left"?

Wanting clean air and health care and better wages?

Nah, it's wanting someone else to pay for all that. But most know the policies that are 2 left:

Vote in Prison
Free College
College debt forgiveness
Free healthcare

[GMDino]

(11-25-2019, 06:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nah, it's wanting someone else to pay for all that. But most know the policies that are 2 left:

Vote in Prison
Free College
College debt forgiveness
Free healthcare

No I'm willing to pay for mine and yours so that everyone can have affordable healthcare and clean air and water.

Just like I pay so we can have the best military.

Amazon doesn't have to pay any taxes so maybe they can chip in a buck or two too.

[fredtoast]

(11-25-2019, 01:39 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've been saying this for a long time, it seems finally CNN is waking up to this reality as well.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/democratic-party-left-liberal-q-poll/index.html?no-st=1572049458

Of course extreme positions tend to move to the center once the primary is over, but will it haunt whomever earns the nomination in the general election?  This article seems to indicate that the answer is yes.

You have to look at little closer at the numbers to understand what they say.

Among independents almost as many think the Republican party has moved too far to the right (43%) as believe the Democrats have moved too far to the left (48%).  The big difference is within the parties.  79% of Republican believe Democrats have moved too far to the left while only 17% of Dems think so.  So I don't see a major issue in the general election.  Independants are almost evenly split and there are not going to be a lot of Dems abandoning the party.



BTW this same poll shows that the Democratic Party received its highest "favorable" rating (41%) in over three years while the "favorable" rating for the Republican Party is just 35%.

[BmorePat87]

79% of Republicans think the Democratic Party has moved too far left? Shocking!

[BmorePat87]

Meanwhile Biden is leading national polling for the nomination and Buttigieg is leading in Iowa and surging in New Hampshire.

Sounds like the moderates still have this.

[CJD]

(11-25-2019, 06:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Is the party too far to the left, or has the Overton Window shifted to the right in the past few decades in a way that makes it appear that progressive ideas are extreme? Some of the policies mentioned in this thread have been favored by one or both parties at some point prior to the Reagan years.

In all seriousness, though, there are a lot of things at play in all of this. But the shifting Overton Window has a large role to play in this perception.

I mean, there's no doubt that the party is moving to the left. 10 years ago, the Democrats were not talking about universal healthcare, debt free college or any of the other policies mentioned in this post, at least not on a significant scale like we're seeing today.

But to the contrary of what some of the more right leaning or center right posters are saying, I don't think the party is moving to an extreme. I just think the Democrats are FINALLY beginning to occupy the left wing of the political spectrum after spending decades as the true center party.

Before now, there was no left wing party in America other than the Green party, who never really got any traction as a major part of American politics.

I think it's nice to finally have a progressive wing of American politics.

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2019, 08:36 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 79% of Republicans think the Democratic Party has moved too far left? Shocking!

Those Republicans are stupid. A smart Republican would say "Hell no!!, they haven't moved far enough Left."