The Democratic Party has moved too far to the left.

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2019, 01:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do they have to apply for this number or are they issued automatically like a SSN?

What difference does it make.  An employer will not pay them without one.

Some immigrants work for cash or are self employed, but so are a lot of citizens.  I don't see any difference.

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 02:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What difference does it make.  An employer will not pay them without one.

Some immigrants work for cash or are self employed, but so are a lot of citizens.  I don't see any difference.

Sorta like I said they can pay taxes if they want to. Not sure a citizen can choose not to have a SSN

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2019, 03:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sorta like I said they can pay taxes if they want to. Not sure a citizen can choose not to have a SSN

They have the exact same choices as citizens. A SSN does not force anyone to pay taxes. And any employer who withholds taxes will not pay an immigrant without a ITIN.

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They have the exact same choices as citizens. A SSN does not force anyone to pay taxes. And any employer who withholds taxes will not pay an immigrant without a ITIN.

Believe it or not. Natural born citizens often enjoy benefits not available to those here illegally. So the "they're the same as our citizens" slant is absurd. May not be fair, but I'm sure our country doesn't own a monopoly on the practice

So we agree illegal immigrates can pay taxes if they want.

Now as to the question: Should illegal immigrants be covered under universal healthcare?

What about these taxpaying Illegals: If they lose their job should they receive unemployment benefits? I mean US citizens do.

[BmorePat87]

(12-05-2019, 01:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do they have to apply for this number or are they issued automatically like a SSN?

The government doesn't automatically issue your child's SSN, they do so in response to documentation received on the child's birth. Most people apply for their child's SSN when they fill out birth certificate information at the hospital.

You can chose not to have one. The only requirement is that any adult who is earning an income needs one.

Non citizens are eligible for SSN in certain cases and most are eligible for ITIN as an alternative. It's how they pay taxes, something they are required to do. It's no more a choice than it is a choice for citizens. Immigrants account for a proportional amount of taxes paid (roughly 13% of our population and roughly 12% of all taxes paid).

[fredtoast]

(12-04-2019, 10:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If they want to; not tracked like US citizens.

(12-05-2019, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So we agree illegal immigrates can pay taxes if they want.

I have always agreed that immigrants pay taxes if they want just like US citizens.

Glad you finally understand that they are "tracked" just the same also.

You are welcome for the education.

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2019, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What about these taxpaying Illegals: If they lose their job should they receive unemployment benefits? I mean US citizens do.

If they have paid payroll taxes like citizens then they should also be entitled to the benefits.

If they have not paid then no.

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2019, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Now as to the question: Should illegal immigrants be covered under universal healthcare? 

Do you mean "should they get it for free" or "should they be allowed to purchase it through a public option".

In general Democrats do not favor free health care for illegal immigrants.  That is one of the myths like "Democrats support open borders" created by the right-wing echo chamber.

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 04:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you mean "should they get it for free" or "should they be allowed to purchase it through a public option".

In general Democrats do not favor free health care for illegal immigrants.  That is one of the myths like "Democrats support open borders" created by the right-wing echo chamber.

Should an illegal immigrant be afforded the same healthcare options as a citizen. That is "what I mean".

As to the "echo-chamber" I see it more as the Right suggests the Left is pro illegal immigration. Personally I think it's absurd that someone here illegally has any rights afforded a citizen; regardless how and what they pay.

I will say it is eye-opening to me that an illegal immigrant can legally work in this country. Little wonder they flood the borders and often times cross illegally. My thoughts have always been with those trying to do the right thing. But that's a whole different thread. I think the point of this thread is the Left's views on what an illegal immigrant should be entitled to. IMO, they are entitled to a one bus ticket to the back of the line; nothing more.

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 04:33 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The government doesn't automatically issue your child's SSN, they do so in response to documentation received on the child's birth. Most people apply for their child's SSN when they fill out birth certificate information at the hospital.

You can chose not to have one. The only requirement is that any adult who is earning an income needs one.

Non citizens are eligible for SSN in certain cases and most are eligible for ITIN as an alternative. It's how they pay taxes, something they are required to do. It's no more a choice than it is a choice for citizens. Immigrants account for a proportional amount of taxes paid (roughly 13% of our population and roughly 12% of all taxes paid).

(12-05-2019, 04:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have always agreed that immigrants pay taxes if they want just like US citizens.

Glad you finally understand that they are "tracked" just the same also.

You are welcome for the education.

Why, when discussions turn to matters such as these do the Left often leave out the Illegal before immigrants? Like most American I fully support legal immigration and applaud those that contribute to society waiting on their citizenship. I do not applaud nor feel any debt to those that enter the country illegally. IMO, that fact that there are those that do is absurd.

[GMDino]

(12-05-2019, 05:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why, when discussions turn to matters such as these do the Left often leave out the Illegal before immigrants? Like most American I fully support legal immigration and applaud those that contribute to society waiting on their citizenship. I do not applaud nor feel any debt to those that enter the country illegally. IMO, that fact that there are those that do is absurd.

What about the ones that entered legally and then fell through the cracks and become illegal?  The ones who have contributed, some for decades, that the DJT wants to kick out?  Do you "applaud" them?

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 05:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: What about the ones that entered legally and then fell through the cracks and become illegal?  The ones who have contributed, some for decades, that the DJT wants to kick out?  Do you "applaud" them?

I do support a pathway to citizenship for those that entered legally. I further support a pathway to citizenship for those youngsters brought over here illegally.

[GMDino]

(12-05-2019, 05:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I do support a pathway to citizenship for those that entered legally. I further support a pathway to citizenship for those youngsters brought over here illegally.

Then it's not "illegals" you have a problem with.

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2019, 05:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Should an illegal immigrant be afforded the same healthcare options as a citizen. That is "what I mean".

As to the "echo-chamber" I see it more as the Right suggests the Left is pro illegal immigration. Personally I think it's absurd that someone here illegally has any rights afforded a citizen; regardless how and what they pay.

I will say it is eye-opening to me that an illegal immigrant can legally work in this country. Little wonder they flood the borders and often times cross illegally. My thoughts have always been with those trying to do the right thing. But that's a whole different thread. I think the point of this thread is the Left's views on what an illegal immigrant should be entitled to. IMO, they are entitled to a one bus ticket to the back of the line; nothing more.

Well the fact is that illegals work, pay taxes, and contribute to our economy.  If we kicked them all out our economy would contract and our GDP would shrink.

I just think we should treat them fairly instead of exploiting their labor and stealing the tax dollars they contribute.  It just seems like the more "Christian" thing to do.  

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2019, 05:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why, when discussions turn to matters such as these do the Left often leave out the Illegal before immigrants?

Because most conservatives don't even know what the term means.

For example you just said you have no problem with people who entered legally yet well over half of "illegal immigrants" enter the country legally.  Most conservatives use the term "illegal immigrants" just to describe Mexican border crossers.

[Dill]

(12-05-2019, 01:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm still unsure of your answer. Who should pay for medicare for all and should illegal immigrants be entitled?

I haven't answered. Still waiting for the role of non-citizen taxpayers in your policy. 

In my view, all taxpayers at least should be entitled.

That's if M-for-all is implemented. I am not on the Medicare for all bandwagon yet.

Also, if you have a problem with "illegals" having any of the rights US citizens have, then do you think we should reduce or do away with altogether the concept of universal human rights?

[BmorePat87]

(12-05-2019, 05:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why, when discussions turn to matters such as these do the Left often leave out the Illegal before immigrants? Like most American I fully support legal immigration and applaud those that contribute to society waiting on their citizenship. I do not applaud nor feel any debt to those that enter the country illegally. IMO, that fact that there are those that do is absurd.

In post #130 you were the first person to use the term "non citizens" and it was in reference to SSF saying "those who aren't in the country legally". Should we not use the term you used?

Also, my post was about all non-citizens in general, not just those who are here illegally.

[6andcounting]

(12-05-2019, 06:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because most conservatives don't even know what the term means.

For example you just said you have no problem with people who entered legally yet well over half of "illegal immigrants" enter the country legally.  Most conservatives use the term "illegal immigrants" just to describe Mexican border crossers.

I use it to describe anyone who speaks with a Mexican accent.

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 06:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because most conservatives don't even know what the term means.

For example you just said you have no problem with people who entered legally yet well over half of "illegal immigrants" enter the country legally.  Most conservatives use the term "illegal immigrants" just to describe Mexican border crossers.

It must be self-refreshing to think you understand terms others do not. 

In my response to Dino, I support a pathway to citizenship to those that entered legally and have now had their status changed to illegal. Of course that does not apply if they failed to meet agreements made. For instance if you violated agreements made then, bye. My response to Dino had to do with those that entered legally and have followed all requirements. Of course the way Dino phrased it; made it seem as if Trump just changed his mind. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-05-2019, 07:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: In post #130 you were the first person to use the term "non citizens" and it was in reference to SSF saying "those who aren't in the country legally". Should we not use the term you used?

Also, my post was about all non-citizens in general, not just those who are here illegally.

I thought folks understood what was being discussed. My apologies for the assumption.