The Fall of Seattle

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I have, on numerous occasions, made the point here about the difficulties of working in law enforcement the past two or so years. Of course, as the messenger is often more important than the message around here some have largely ignored this. Someone posted this item in an LEO subreddit and it's worth a read.

https://unherd.com/2022/03/the-fall-of-seattle/

A well written, and even handed (the author writes for Vanity Fair, not exactly a conservative publication) review of the past two years and the consequences of the anti-law enforcement rhetoric in many Dem controlled municipalities. We have it bad in LA, but these guys in Seattle really took it in the shorts. From abandoning an entire precinct to looters and rioters to allowing CHOP/CHAZ to exist (btw I had no idea just how many shootings took place there in such a short time frame) to just the general statements from city government, these officers were under constant siege.

It really highlights not only the dangerous, and pro-criminal, atmosphere that has been created, but the severe effects of brain/experience drain on large departments. Every veteran officer that retires or laterals out takes thousand of hours of experience with them. I can tell you first hand that it's about five years in before you really know the job and another five on top of that before you stop running into something new on at least a monthly basis. These departments will take decades to recover, and all because people wanted to play politics with public safety. Well, Seattle is paying the price now, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

[basballguy]

This took a bit to read.  You can tell it the author (or authors considering how long this is) attempted to keep it neutral with comments like

Quote:Groups of protesters shattered windows up and down the retail corridors of downtown and emptied many of the stores of their merchandise.

Back in my day, that was called rioting and looting.  I can't wait till I have grandchildren and they tell me everything they learned about the peaceful protests in Watts in 1965.  

As for the article...it tells the story of what many people predicted.  Alienating your police while also ignoring criminal activity is an invitation for increased crime.

Here's an article on Seattle's out of control crime:

https://www.kuow.org/stories/seattle-officials-announce-new-measures-to-tackle-violence-and-property-crimes

Fun crime stats from that article:

• Violent crime rose 20% in 2021 (over 2020) and is a 14 year high
• Overall crime increased by 10% YoY
• Property crime increased by 9%
  

Fun quote from that article:

Quote:"Working with the community, including the restaurant and shop owners of Little Saigon, our police officers in the first 21 days of January made 23 felony arrests, 14 misdemeanor arrests" and recovered stolen property, Harrell said.

The population of Seattle is 725k.  They have over 1000 officers.  I'm no expert but in a city that size, I'm not sure those are numbers I'd be bragging about.  I feel like those numbers would be small even if they were only DWI arrests.  

[*michaelsean*]

(03-29-2022, 01:04 AM)basballguy Wrote: This took a bit to read.  You can tell it the author (or authors considering how long this is) attempted to keep it neutral with comments like


Back in my day, that was called rioting and looting.  I can't wait till I have grandchildren and they tell me everything they learned about the peaceful protests in Watts in 1965.  

As for the article...it tells the story of what many people predicted.  Alienating your police while also ignoring criminal activity is an invitation for increased crime.

Here's an article on Seattle's out of control crime:

https://www.kuow.org/stories/seattle-officials-announce-new-measures-to-tackle-violence-and-property-crimes

Fun crime stats from that article:

• Violent crime rose 20% in 2021 (over 2020) and is a 14 year high
• Overall crime increased by 10% YoY
• Property crime increased by 9%
  

Fun quote from that article:


The population of Seattle is 725k. They have over 1000 officers.  I'm no expert but in a city that size, I'm not sure those are numbers I'd be bragging about.  I feel like those numbers would be small even if they were only DWI arrests. 

Well for comparison, Cincinnati is half that size and has the same number of police.

[NATI BENGALS]

I can't imagine there are many if any career LEOs looking to relocate to Seattle. The holes will have to be filled with home grown talent, people who grew up in Seattle and surrounding areas and want to see it do well.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-29-2022, 09:17 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I can't imagine there are many if any career LEOs looking to relocate to Seattle. The holes will have to be filled with home grown talent, people who grew up in Seattle and surrounding areas and want to see it do well.

The first part is 100% correct, no established LEO is going to lateral to Seattle.  Your second part is a bit off.  What will happen is LEO's will start in Seattle, get paid to go through the academy there and then bounce ASAP.  If you have a city with a hostile working environment your turnover is always going to be heavy.  No LEO with the ability to move elsewhere will stay in such an environment.

[Sled21]

As I said earlier today, people chose sides last year and chose criminals over the police. Now they have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. Get ready for a hot summer.

[GMDino]

(03-29-2022, 09:17 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I can't imagine there are many if any career LEOs looking to relocate to Seattle. The holes will have to be filled with home grown talent, people who grew up in Seattle and surrounding areas and want to see it do well.

(03-29-2022, 09:59 PM)Sled21 Wrote: As I said earlier today, people chose sides last year and chose criminals over the police. Now they have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. Get ready for a hot summer.

These two quotes are part of the problem I have with this whole thing.

First, it's sad that the pendulum swung so far the other way.

Secondly, rather than working together to sole the problem we have a group that say "you made your bed, lay in it".  

If people join the police only to go where they are completely respected vs going into the job to make the place safer perhaps they shouldn't join at all?  If the current force and the current administration and the current public can't work together that's one thing.  But it would seem from this thread that people are genuinely happy that crime is up and that no one is going to step up to help either.

I know, I know.   I'm an idealist who believes people can overcome their differences to reach agreements and make things better.  I'm a silly goose.

[HarleyDog]

(03-30-2022, 08:51 AM)GMDino Wrote: These two quotes are part of the problem I have with this whole thing.

First, it's sad that the pendulum swung so far the other way.

Secondly, rather than working together to sole the problem we have a group that say "you made your bed, lay in it".  

If people join the police only to go where they are completely respected vs going into the job to make the place safer perhaps they shouldn't join at all?  If the current force and the current administration and the current public can't work together that's one thing.  But it would seem from this thread that people are genuinely happy that crime is up and that no one is going to step up to help either.

I know, I know.   I'm an idealist who believes people can overcome their differences to reach agreements and make things better.  I'm a silly goose.

Be honest with yourself. Did you really think things would have turned out any differently? And don't blame the police for not wanting to work in a hostile environment. Doesn't mean they should rethink their purpose for their career. It means they ain't stupid.

[GMDino]

(03-30-2022, 09:43 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Be honest with yourself. Did you really think things would have turned out any differently? And don't blame the police for not wanting to work in a hostile environment. Doesn't mean they should rethink their purpose for their career. It means they ain't stupid.

Well, like I said, I'm an idealist.  I'd rather see both sides come together but I am honest enough to know the radicals on both ends won't.

I honestly think over time this can be resolved and progress can be made to both make Seattle safer and the police better.  

I don't think they are stupid.  I think that if they want to police they should want to make their hometown better.  I think that if they ONLY want to be where they get no push back that's a problem too. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-29-2022, 09:59 PM)Sled21 Wrote: As I said earlier today, people chose sides last year and chose criminals over the police. Now they have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. Get ready for a hot summer.

It will certainly be a case of having to lie in the bed you made.

(03-30-2022, 08:51 AM)GMDino Wrote: These two quotes are part of the problem I have with this whole thing.

First, it's sad that the pendulum swung so far the other way.

Secondly, rather than working together to sole the problem we have a group that say "you made your bed, lay in it".  

If people join the police only to go where they are completely respected vs going into the job to make the place safer perhaps they shouldn't join at all?  If the current force and the current administration and the current public can't work together that's one thing.  But it would seem from this thread that people are genuinely happy that crime is up and that no one is going to step up to help either.

I know, I know.   I'm an idealist who believes people can overcome their differences to reach agreements and make things better.  I'm a silly goose.

When did law enforcement officers become a separate species?  Everyone wants to be treated with a modicum of respect in the workplace.  We are certainly used to the criminals not liking us, there's obvious reasons for it and, in their eyes, we're the reason they're getting arrested.  But to have common citizenry, and even worse, your own government, treat you like shit?  What person on Earth would want to work under those conditions?  Would you work at a place where you were constantly treated like shit?  Why do you think LEO's should just deal with it?

(03-30-2022, 09:43 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Be honest with yourself. Did you really think things would have turned out any differently? And don't blame the police for not wanting to work in a hostile environment. Doesn't mean they should rethink their purpose for their career. It means they ain't stupid.

A-effing-men.

(03-30-2022, 09:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well, like I said, I'm an idealist.  I'd rather see both sides come together but I am honest enough to know the radicals on both ends won't.

I honestly think over time this can be resolved and progress can be made to both make Seattle safer and the police better.  

I don't think they are stupid.  I think that if they want to police they should want to make their hometown better.  I think that if they ONLY want to be where they get no push back that's a problem too. 

You use this argument all the time with policing, the "it's what you signed up for" line of thinking so prevalent among the far left.  No one signs up to be treated like garbage.  No amount of idealism is going to withstand years of abuse.  We already die at much earlier ages then non LEO's.  I can't tell you how many friends have retired and not lasted two years after.  If you truly want to see things improve then start with yourself and realize LEO's are human like anyone else.  They don't get to be treated like crap because "that's what they signed up for".  Did you even read the article in OP?  It explains rather well why well intentioned, and highly committed, officers would leave a situation like Seattle's.  

[GMDino]

(03-30-2022, 02:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It will certainly be a case of having to lie in the bed you made.


When did law enforcement officers become a separate species?  Everyone wants to be treated with a modicum of respect in the workplace.  We are certainly used to the criminals not liking us, there's obvious reasons for it and, in their eyes, we're the reason they're getting arrested.  But to have common citizenry, and even worse, your own government, treat you like shit?  What person on Earth would want to work under those conditions?  Would you work at a place where you were constantly treated like shit?  Why do you think LEO's should just deal with it?


A-effing-men.


You use this argument all the time with policing, the "it's what you signed up for" line of thinking so prevalent among the far left.  No one signs up to be treated like garbage.  No amount of idealism is going to withstand years of abuse.  We already die at much earlier ages then non LEO's.  I can't tell you how many friends have retired and not lasted two years after.  If you truly want to see things improve then start with yourself and realize LEO's are human like anyone else.  They don't get to be treated like crap because "that's what they signed up for".  Did you even read the article in OP?  It explains rather well why well intentioned, and highly committed, officers would leave a situation like Seattle's.  

Hi!  You're getting this special response because you are SO wrong and have SO misstated what I said that it requires me to point it out.

Your reply didn't even come close to reflecting a single word I said.  I never called police a different species. I never said that's what they signed up for.  None of that.  

My "argument" was that it never should have gotten this bad.

My "argument" is rather than quit or get rid of the police there can be progress to make it better.

My "argument" is that police should not be treated badly AND that they should work with the local officials to make it better.

Not everyone cuts and runs when things are bad for them.  Some stay and try to make it better.  I don't blame the ones that do leave...I just expect some to stay and fight for better treatment.

I know you won't believe it or care and you'll just attack me for daring to speak on a police subject.  And that's ok.  I know it is a personal issue for you.

At least you got the response you've been begging for.  TTYL...like a year or so...lol. 

Be well and have a good day.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2022, 02:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: Hi!  You're getting this special response because you are SO wrong and have SO misstated what I said that it requires me to point it out.

Your reply didn't even come close to reflecting a single word I said.  I never called police a different species. I never said that's what they signed up for.  None of that.

I didn't say you did.  You did state that if there convictions were strong enough they'd stick it out.  I pointed out, correctly, that LEO's are human like everyone else and deserve to be treated with the same respect as anyone else.  No one deserves to work in an abusive environment.

Quote:My "argument" was that it never should have gotten this bad.

My "argument" is rather than quit or get rid of the police there can be progress to make it better.

My "argument" is that police should not be treated badly AND that they should work with the local officials to make it better.

Not everyone cuts and runs when things are bad for them.  Some stay and try to make it better.  I don't blame the ones that do leave...I just expect some to stay and fight for better treatment.

You must not realize how the wording you use infers the perception of your argument.  Excellent case in point, your use of "cut and run when things get bad."  Any normal person, without any knowledge of your posting history would infer, quite correctly, that you are labeling LEO's who leave as quitters, cowards or both.  They're just not tough and principled enough to stay and deal with it according to you.  I honestly think you're not even aware of your own biases here.

Quote:I know you won't believe it or care and you'll just attack me for daring to speak on a police subject.  And that's ok.  I know it is a personal issue for you.

I didn't attack you, or come close to attacking you in this thread, or any other recent thread.  Why the faux victimhood here?

Quote:At least you got the response you've been begging for.  TTYL...like a year or so...lol. 

Be well and have a good day.

Dear lord, the ego on you.  I comment on posts that I believe deserve a comment.  You are not special or unique in that regard and honestly your response is borderline creepy.

[GMDino]

My words will speak for themselves.


If anyone wants to share a quote where I called police a different species or said they should just put up with everything and shut up I'd live to see it.

Otherwise I'll stand by what I said:  It never should have come to this and people should be trying to change it for the betterment of everyone involved in the community.  Just because it is bad doesn't mean it progress can't be made to make it good again.

[Sled21]

It appears certain people can't comprehend life as it is. They live in a fairy tale land of rainbows and unicorns. They don't understand that people who commit crimes do not want to go to jail, and many times will use violence to keep from being locked up. They think the police should just be professional and "Reed and Malloy" them into the back of a cruiser. Doesn't work like that. The only way to lock up a violent criminal who does not want to be subdued is to use more violence to subdue him than he's using to get away, and there's no way that doesn't look ugly on camera. It's either that or let him go on his way on down the street. But don't hurt him. Don't hit him, certainly don't choke him, don't tase him and absolutely don't shoot him even if he's shooting at you. Remember, no one will help you, but everyone will film you. Oh, and if you struggle with him and he happens to be a morbidly obese POS hopped up on drugs and he has a heart attack, well pack your bags for your penitentiary stay. The public has a choice and they made it. They inevitably over the last few years have sided with the criminals over the police. So, since most police officers are not dumb, they made their choice as well. They retired or resigned, transferred to a more supportive community, or they made the decision to ride around in the cruiser with the max A/C on listening to the radio with the windows up and do no proactive police work that might result in having to put hands on someone. It's a simple self-defense decision really. It's called the Ferguson Effect and it's real. "Do I get out and chase that guy, risk getting killed or sued or charged, or do I turn left and go get some coffee?" And now violent crime is skyrocketing, and people wonder why, and all of a sudden, they want their police to do something. I'm retired from police work now, but still have many many friends who aren't. Society is on their own by their own choices. And when did all this start again??? It started with "The Cambridge Police acted stupidly"

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2022, 03:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: My words will speak for themselves.

Yes, they do.

Quote:If anyone wants to share a quote where I called police a different species or said they should just put up with everything and shut up I'd live to see it.

No one said you did, stop being Fred and making silly claims.

Quote:Otherwise I'll stand by what I said:  It never should have come to this and people should be trying to change it for the betterment of everyone involved in the community.  Just because it is bad doesn't mean it progress can't be made to make it good again.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with your general sentiment, but the way to achieve this is not likely to be agreed upon.

(03-30-2022, 03:21 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It appears certain people can't comprehend life as it is. They live in a fairy tale land of rainbows and unicorns. They don't understand that people who commit crimes do not want to go to jail, and many times will use violence to keep from being locked up. They think the police should just be professional and "Reed and Malloy" them into the back of a cruiser. Doesn't work like that. The only way to lock up a violent criminal who does not want to be subdued is to use more violence to subdue him than he's using to get away, and there's no way that doesn't look ugly on camera. It's either that or let him go on his way on down the street. But don't hurt him. Don't hit him, certainly don't choke him, don't tase him and absolutely don't shoot him even if he's shooting at you. Remember, no one will help you, but everyone will film you. Oh, and if you struggle with him and he happens to be a morbidly obese POS hopped up on drugs and he has a heart attack, well pack your bags for your penitentiary stay. The public has a choice and they made it. They inevitably over the last few years have sided with the criminals over the police. So, since most police officers are not dumb, they made their choice as well. They retired or resigned, transferred to a more supportive community, or they made the decision to ride around in the cruiser with the max A/C on listening to the radio with the windows up and do no proactive police work that might result in having to put hands on someone. It's a simple self-defense decision really. It's called the Ferguson Effect and it's real. "Do I get out and chase that guy, risk getting killed or sued or charged, or do I turn left and go get some coffee?" And now violent crime is skyrocketing, and people wonder why, and all of a sudden, they want their police to do something. I'm retired from police work now, but still have many many friends who aren't. Society is on their own by their own choices. And when did all this start again??? It started with "The Cambridge Police acted stupidly"

See, a lot of people would argue that the "no proactive policing" (and BTW I understand completely what you mean) is LEO's simply refusing to do their job.  In reality it's choosing to only do their job, which is respond to calls, and not put in any extra effort.  I'm largely out of the field now (yes, I'm management, but I'm that rare version that line officers like working for) but I can absolutely understand the notion and I'm not sure I would react any differently.  Especially when, in many of these cities, the DA won't file charges anyways and the arrestee is free before you even finish your paperwork.  

I protect my people when they're in the right.  The only time I've even been threatened with discipline was when I refused to discipline an officer who did nothing wrong.  Upper management ordered me to write them up and I refused, telling them they could write me up for the refusal if they so chose.  In ended up going nowhere because my officer's actions were completely appropriate and within policy.  But most people at lieutenant level and above would have written him up in an instant to play the political game and hopefully climb the ladder higher.  I know you know exactly what I mean.  If you work for someone who won't protect you, and note I'm not saying cover up for you, when you're on the hot seat then you're going to leave and a municipality is no different than management in this regard.

Seattle is already paying a hefty price and it's only going to get worse for them.  Portland has the same issue, absolutely no one wants to work there.  Who would want to work somewhere hostile for a government that will happily throw you to the wolves should something go wrong, or even be perceived to go wrong.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-30-2022, 03:21 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It appears certain people can't comprehend life as it is. They live in a fairy tale land of rainbows and unicorns. They don't understand that people who commit crimes do not want to go to jail, and many times will use violence to keep from being locked up. They think the police should just be professional and "Reed and Malloy" them into the back of a cruiser. Doesn't work like that. The only way to lock up a violent criminal who does not want to be subdued is to use more violence to subdue him than he's using to get away, and there's no way that doesn't look ugly on camera. It's either that or let him go on his way on down the street. But don't hurt him. Don't hit him, certainly don't choke him, don't tase him and absolutely don't shoot him even if he's shooting at you. Remember, no one will help you, but everyone will film you. Oh, and if you struggle with him and he happens to be a morbidly obese POS hopped up on drugs and he has a heart attack, well pack your bags for your penitentiary stay. The public has a choice and they made it. They inevitably over the last few years have sided with the criminals over the police. So, since most police officers are not dumb, they made their choice as well. They retired or resigned, transferred to a more supportive community, or they made the decision to ride around in the cruiser with the max A/C on listening to the radio with the windows up and do no proactive police work that might result in having to put hands on someone. It's a simple self-defense decision really. It's called the Ferguson Effect and it's real. "Do I get out and chase that guy, risk getting killed or sued or charged, or do I turn left and go get some coffee?" And now violent crime is skyrocketing, and people wonder why, and all of a sudden, they want their police to do something. I'm retired from police work now, but still have many many friends who aren't. Society is on their own by their own choices. And when did all this start again??? It started with "The Cambridge Police acted stupidly"

And here I thought police brutality, excessive use of force, and corruption along with the internet and everybody having a camera in their pocket made life harder in LEOs. I had no idea it was as simple as just blaming it all on Obama.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-31-2022, 12:11 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: And here I thought police brutality, excessive use of force, and corruption along with the internet and everybody having a camera in their pocket made life harder in LEOs. I had no idea it was as simple as just blaming it all on Obama.

Your first three have nothing to do with 99% plus of LEO's.  Secondly, cameras have exonerated officers far more than they have condemned them.  Turns out most criminals lie about things, like getting mistreated during an arrest, and the video ends up proving this.

[*Nately120*]

(03-31-2022, 12:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your first three have nothing to do with 99% plus of LEO's.  Secondly, cameras have exonerated officers far more than they have condemned them.  Turns out most criminals lie about things, like getting mistreated during an arrest, and the video ends up proving this.

I tells ya, just more real life people having to deal with the effectivity of politicians demonizing entire swaths of people because we dumbass voters just fall for it every time.

We've heard how dangerous Muslims are...we've gotten used to it.  Give us an example of someone who lives next door who will kill me if I don't vote for you. Mr. Rodgers told me the police and teachers are my friends and trustworthy, but politicians tell me they are murderers and pedophiles. Not sure who to believe here.

[GMDino]

(03-31-2022, 12:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I tells ya, just more real life people having to deal with the effectivity of politicians demonizing entire swaths of people because we dumbass voters just fall for it every time.

We've heard how dangerous Muslims are...we've gotten used to it.  Give us an example of someone who lives next door who will kill me if I don't vote for you.  Mr. Rodgers told me the police and teachers are my friends and trustworthy, but politicians tell me they are murderers and pedophiles.  Not sure who to believe here.

Qualified immunity has protected more police officers than body cameras.  But that's for another thread.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-31-2022, 12:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your first three have nothing to do with 99% plus of LEO's.  Secondly, cameras have exonerated officers far more than they have condemned them.  Turns out most criminals lie about things, like getting mistreated during an arrest, and the video ends up proving this.

I disagree. Like I said that is what has made life harder on LEOs. Pretty early lesson in the USMC was one person can ruin it for everybody. You see somebody handcuffed and suffocated to death in the street or some mentally ill old lady getting her arm broke on the side of the road or some old man busting his head after being tased in his underwear standing in his own house. And it irks you. Then you hear we have the highest prison rates in the world and every few months some guy gets out of prison after years behind bars for being wrongfully convicted. And people start thinking about ways the system could be improved. And people try to make changes.

Blaming Obama, saying society is on its own and that those being paid to serve and protect will not be proactive and will do the bare minimum and getting right on board with that behavior is not an impressive set of solutions. Especially when the same group then complains about rising crime…

Well our job is to fight crime. But we are really not going to try. ZOMG look at the democrat crime wave…