The Fall of Seattle

[Belsnickel]

(03-31-2022, 01:44 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I disagree. Like I said that is what has made life harder on LEOs. Pretty early lesson in the USMC was one person can ruin it for everybody. You see somebody handcuffed and suffocated to death in the street or some mentally ill old lady getting her arm broke on the side of the road or some old man busting his head after being tased in his underwear standing in his own house. And it irks you. Then you hear we have the highest prison rates in the world and every few months some guy gets out of prison after years behind bars for being wrongfully convicted. And people start thinking about ways the system could be improved. And people try to make changes.

Blaming Obama, saying society is on its own and that those being paid to serve and protect will not be proactive and will do the bare minimum and getting right on board with that behavior is not an impressive set of solutions. Especially when the same group then complains about rising crime…

Well our job is to fight crime. But we are really not going to try. ZOMG look at the democrat crime wave…

While discussion of policing reforms is a part of the larger criminal justice reform conversation, we can't just consider them synonymous. There is a whole lot more nuance to it than that. Our prison population, for example, is more a product of the continued reliance upon slavery for the capitalist enterprises in this country than it is a result of police actions.

[*Nately120*]

(03-31-2022, 01:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While discussion of policing reforms is a part of the larger criminal justice reform conversation, we can't just consider them synonymous. There is a whole lot more nuance to it than that. Our prison population, for example, is more a product of the continued reliance upon slavery for the capitalist enterprises in this country than it is a result of police actions.

I ain't no sociologist, but it does seem like poverty and a feeling of a lack of upward mobility as a reward for work is what leads to increased crime rates.  We are 40+ years removed from the dawn of the "poor people choose to be poor" propaganda, so we lie in the bed we gleefully made, in a sense. 

[GMDino]

(03-31-2022, 01:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While discussion of policing reforms is a part of the larger criminal justice reform conversation, we can't just consider them synonymous. There is a whole lot more nuance to it than that. Our prison population, for example, is more a product of the continued reliance upon slavery for the capitalist enterprises in this country than it is a result of police actions.

Its a chain though isn't it?  without the politicians making laws, police enforcing, lawyers and judges, etc we could reduce the prison population.

But where's the profit in that?

[Belsnickel]

(03-31-2022, 01:57 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I ain't no sociologist, but it does seem like poverty and a feeling of a lack of upward mobility as a reward for work is what leads to increased crime rates.  We are 40+ years removed from the dawn of the "poor people choose to be poor" propaganda, so we lie in the bed we gleefully made, in a sense. 

You'd almost think there'd be some sort of correlation between socioeconomic inequalities and crime, especially violent crime.

[*Nately120*]

(03-31-2022, 02:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You'd almost think there'd be some sort of correlation between socioeconomic inequalities and crime, especially violent crime.

If only we could learn something from looking at those "shithole" countries where the income gap is huge.  I pointed out before how a certainl political persuasion that declares Mexico to be evidence of a terrible country sure does seem to push an agenda that is awfully similar to the one that made Mexico such a terrible country in their eyes.

Funny, that.  Anyways, I heard someone on welfare bought a lobster once, so let's get more like Mexico ASAP.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-31-2022, 01:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While discussion of policing reforms is a part of the larger criminal justice reform conversation, we can't just consider them synonymous. There is a whole lot more nuance to it than that. Our prison population, for example, is more a product of the continued reliance upon slavery for the capitalist enterprises in this country than it is a result of police actions.

I get it. It is a giant imperfect system. That’s why I’m open to attempts at improving it. If it doesn’t work try something else. Continuous improvement would be ideal. And it’s not all on LEOs.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-31-2022, 02:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You'd almost think there'd be some sort of correlation between socioeconomic inequalities and crime, especially violent crime.

I don't know that this has ever been argued against, and you and I have had this discussion several times.  I will say, from my experience, there are two main reasons poor people stay poor; 1. They have children they don't want, cant afford or both.  Having children severely curtails your life options, especially for the woman, and is a huge resource drain on both time and money.  Yes, I know this sounds like I'm reducing a child to a parasite, but I'm speaking in a general sense and neither of those two facts can be disputed.  2.  They don't know things, often basic things, that will help them get ahead as they've never been exposed to them.  An easy example is one I've given before, the mother who I personally took to the bank to open a checking account rather than using check cashing "businesses."  She thought a checking account was something she couldn't afford, as no one ever educated her on this subject.  If you really want to assist the working poor, provide them with lessons like this on things most of us take for granted as general knowledge.

Actually, the second example brought a third to mind, predatory businesses such as the aforementioned check cashing place or the "par day advance loan" scam businesses.  It always chaps my ass how many businesses are trying to squeeze every last penny out of people who don't have much to begin with.  This, of course, dovetails extremely well with point number two, as having that general knowledge would curtail the use of such predatory businesses.


Lastly, in regard to rising crime rates and the assertion by some that they are caused by LEO's sitting on their hands.  The biggest factor, by far, in many jurisdictions are DA's or city attorneys who flat out refuse to do their job.  They abuse their prosecutorial discretion to treat the penal code like a salad bar, only taking what they want, when they want it.  Before anyone pisses and moans about law enforcement "not doing their job" that same person better be lambasting every soft on crime DA in the country at ten times the rate, at least, or their opinion on the subject is worthless.

[Sled21]

(03-31-2022, 12:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: Qualified immunity has protected more police officers than body cameras.  But that's for another thread.

You obviously don't know what "Qualified Immunity" is and isn't.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-31-2022, 05:45 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You obviously don't know what "Qualified Immunity" is and isn't.

This is a common non-starter that I have tried to address in the past.  All qualified immunity states is that if your actions are within policy then you cannot be sued personally.  Unfortunately, law enforcement can be a messy business, and everyone can do their job properly and still have a bad result.  Ending qualified immunity would mean the absolute death of law enforcement.  

[*Nately120*]

Could be an interesting time if Seattle goes all crazy with crime and everyone who saw Kyle Rittnehouse become a rich folk hero grabs their guns and heads over there to protect stuff. Oh America, you're really turning it up to 11!

[Belsnickel]

(03-31-2022, 04:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't know that this has ever been argued against, and you and I have had this discussion several times. 

I'm not going to get into the meat of your post, really. I just don't have the bandwidth for it today. I will just say that while I have never seen anyone really contest this correlation, there are many people who ignore it. Whether it be in the Democratic Party as they try to target firearms to lower violent crime rates or whether it is the Republicans that focus on punitive actions and putting blinders on when it comes to deeper societal issues.

Root cause mitigation. It's what we policy wonks love to look at. It's complex, politically unsavory, and actually solves problems. Therefore, politicians never want to engage in it.

[GMDino]

(03-31-2022, 05:45 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You obviously don't know what "Qualified Immunity" is and isn't.

It's something the right usually hates first off: Legislating from the bench.

A Judicial ruling, not a law, that protects leos that may have violated a citizen's rights if it was the first time that exact situation happened.

Here's a fair look at it.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-qualified-immunity-and-what-does-it-have-do-police-reform

But again, that's for another thread.

[GMDino]

(03-31-2022, 02:17 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I get it. It is a giant imperfect system. That’s why I’m open to attempts at improving it. If it doesn’t work try something else. Continuous improvement would be ideal. And it’s not all on LEOs.

Top to bottom people working together to make a better system.  But that makes me a believer in unicorns too I guess...lol.