The Fallacy of White Privilege

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-20-2016, 12:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You have no clue what we are even talking about.

Go back and read this thread.  I'll discuss it with you as soon as you show you understand what we are even talking about.

Start with getting a dictionary and looking up the meaning of the word "privilege". Hint: The word "success" does not appear anywhere in the definition.   Nor have I at anytime suggested that success of any group of people was totally dependent on this privilege.  That is just a bunch of BS made up by people who can not dispute what I actually say. 


"Derp.  If anyone claims that white people have a privilege than that means every white person gets everything for free and minorities can not have anything ever.  Derp."

Because what you say is based on your opinion
There is no amount of logic that can or will dispute that. You'll just keep repeating yourself like a broken record until everyone else stops talking.

[Beaker]

(11-20-2016, 12:57 PM)treee Wrote: I do agree that identity politics are used intentionally to create divisive rhetoric. That's why I suggested the term "majority privilege". You are also correct that just because there is a majority privilege, that does not mean there are not privileges for minorities as well. The only difference is that those minority privileges were specifically instituted in an attempt to deter some of the negative consequences begat from majority privilege which occurs on its own.

Do you find that premise agreeable?

 
I still contend that every race receive privileges that others races do not enjoy....in the context of advantages given to them just on the basis of their race. And these minority privileges are not always just the ones that were instituted by the majority. I just think the whole entire concept that we need another name for racism continues the divisive rhetoric. I do not advocate holding the truth from anyone, or lying to them. But there's already enough bad blood out there that we don't need to fuel it with another concept that really has no further merit than one already in place. 

[treee]

(11-20-2016, 07:39 PM)Beaker Wrote:  
I still contend that every race receive privileges that others races do not enjoy....in the context of advantages given to them just on the basis of their race. And these minority privileges are not always just the ones that were instituted by the majority. I just think the whole entire concept that we need another name for racism continues the divisive rhetoric. I do not advocate holding the truth from anyone, or lying to them. But there's already enough bad blood out there that we don't need to fuel it with another concept that really has no further merit than one already in place. 

What minority privilege do you think occurs naturally? I'm having trouble thinking of anything.

[Beaker]

(11-20-2016, 10:00 PM)treee Wrote: What minority privilege do you think occurs naturally? I'm having trouble thinking of anything.

If we use fred's definition of privilege as an advantage given based upon skin color alone, are you not aware of cases where a minority ethnicity will hire or play favorite to someone of their own ethnicity over other races? I was assuming you were referring to examples like affirmative action and/or quotas. I think it's also pretty well know that my types of examples exist independent of those. 

[treee]

(11-20-2016, 10:24 PM)Beaker Wrote: If we use fred's definition of privilege as an advantage given based upon skin color alone, are you not aware of cases where a minority ethnicity will hire or play favorite to someone of their own ethnicity over other races? I was assuming you were referring to examples like affirmative action and/or quotas. I think it's also pretty well know that my types of examples exist independent of those. 

I don't use Fred's definition for anything because, in my experience, he does not make for a very good conversation. I agree that minorities have advantages because of affirmative action and admissions quotas and things of that nature. I think that those were enacted to try to level to playing field for groups of people that didn't have the networking infrastructure or strong community ties to the business world in the U.S. 

That has to do with the argument I was making as well. The only economic advantages to being a minority are ones that society specifically institutes because the white majority of the country has almost a 200 year head start on establishing a majority culture and business world based on their majority status alone. 

Other than policies specifically trying to make things reasonably fair for minorities though, there is no advantage for being a minority population in any situation. And I also believe there are probably some ways where we still haven't evened the playing field. I can't name any for you specifically, but it would make sense to me logically that there are some areas in life where it still is a negative experience to be a minority based solely on one's own minority status.

[Beaker]

(11-20-2016, 10:33 PM)treee Wrote: Other than policies specifically trying to make things reasonably fair for minorities though, there is no advantage for being a minority population in any situation. And I also believe there are probably some ways where we still haven't evened the playing field. I can't name any for you specifically, but it would make sense to me logically that there are some areas in life where it still is a negative experience to be a minority based solely on one's own minority status.

I agree that there are areas in life where it is a negative experience to being a minority. But do you not think some minority populations have advantages intrinsic to their populations, no matter how small? That persons of that population cannot offer advantages to others within their population based solely upon ethnicity?

[treee]

(11-22-2016, 12:43 AM)Beaker Wrote: I agree that there are areas in life where it is a negative experience to being a minority. But do you not think some minority populations have advantages intrinsic to their populations, no matter how small? That persons of that population cannot offer advantages to others within their population based solely upon ethnicity?

I may not be interpreting you post correctly, so feel free to let me know if that's the case.


There is two ways these questions could be taken. 

If it is taken as certain cultures tend be good at different thing in general , then yea that's definitely the case. For instance, a lot of Asian cultures have strict expectations of success and this in general leads to an a general inclination towards success in things such as academics. 

If it is taken to mean that these minority populations help each other out and give each other an advantage in relation to their population, that is true too. However, even with them holding each other up like this, they're still a minority and by it's definition their impact on the world in general is limited in a way that a majority is not.

I understand what you're saying though. However, when you're a minority it is absolutely imperative to help each other out because you're already at a disadvantage comparatively.

[Beaker]

(11-22-2016, 12:53 AM)treee Wrote: If it is taken to mean that these minority populations help each other out and give each other an advantage in relation to their population, that is true too. 

This...basically.

[treee]

(11-22-2016, 12:56 AM)Beaker Wrote: This...basically.

I just see it from a different lens. I see it as necessity rather than privilege.

[GMDino]

(11-22-2016, 12:43 AM)Beaker Wrote: I agree that there are areas in life where it is a negative experience to being a minority. But do you not think some minority populations have advantages intrinsic to their populations, no matter how small? That persons of that population cannot offer advantages to others within their population based solely upon ethnicity?

There are no absolutes.

But the majority holding power for the majority of this nation's history speaks volumes to the advantage of being white (and male) for the vast majority of the time.  There are exceptions, of course.  We had a black president once.

Listen to this podcast from Malcom Gladwell.

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/01-the-lady-vanishes

Quote:EPISODE 01 THE LADY VANISHES

In the late 19th, a painting by a virtually unknown artist took England by storm: The Roll Call. But after that brilliant first effort, the artist all but disappeared. Why?

The Lady Vanishes explores the world of art and politics to examines the strange phenomenon of the “token”—the outsider whose success serves not to alleviate discrimination but perpetuate it. If a country elects a female president, does that mean the door is now open for all women to follow? Or does that simply give the status quo the justification to close the door again?

It gives a little more insight to the psychology behind it all.

[*bfine32*]

(11-20-2016, 10:00 PM)treee Wrote: What minority privilege do you think occurs naturally? I'm having trouble thinking of anything.

Well, I'm in the minority of the top 10% most beautiful people in the world and folks are naturally nicer to me.

So I guess the point is: Being a minority is not a disadvantage if the majority "likes your kind".  

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2016, 04:28 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Because what you say is based on your opinion

But it is not just based on my opinion.

It is based on multiple scientific studies that show that "white names" are a benefit when submitting an application for housing or employment.

It is based on investigations that proved that minorities had harder times getting loans than white people with the same credit scores. 

It is based on multiple studies and even admissions by law enforcement that they racially profile minorities.

It is based on the fact that as recently as 25 years ago this country was full of elite private country clubs where large groups of people who controlled the wealth and power in their communities refused to allow people of color to socialize with them.

It is based on the overt display of racism in this years presidential election where Confederate flags and "Make America White Again" signs were common.

[*Nately120*]

I don't believe there is any advantage to being white...but then again I support stop-n-frisk profiling, treating every Hispanic like a lawn-mowing rapist, and the deportation of people who seem too Muslim-ey for my tastes, so I'm sort of full of crap.

[Belsnickel]

(11-20-2016, 09:08 AM)treee Wrote: On a more serious note, maybe it should be called majority privilege. Perhaps it would hurt less feelings that way.

Not entirely true. There are places where white people are the minority and they experience privilege. It's weird and rare, but I recall a discussion about it occurring in some places. It's why you will see some cultures where they try to lighten their skin, and in the case of some areas in Asia, widen their eyes. It's because of the elevated status white westerners have in their culture.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-22-2016, 12:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well, I'm in the minority of the top 10% most beautiful people in the world and folks are naturally nicer to me.

So I guess the point is: Being a minority is not a disadvantage if the majority "likes your kind".  

And the top 10% most modest people in the world, clearly.    

[treee]

(11-22-2016, 07:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not entirely true. There are places where white people are the minority and they experience privilege. It's weird and rare, but I recall a discussion about it occurring in some places. It's why you will see some cultures where they try to lighten their skin, and in the case of some areas in Asia, widen their eyes. It's because of the elevated status white westerners have in their culture.

You bring up an interesting point. I seem to remember a movement to condemn fashion magazines a couple years ago because they were digitally lightening model's skin.

[fredtoast]

(11-23-2016, 02:12 AM)treee Wrote: You bring up an interesting point. I seem to remember a movement to condemn fashion magazines a couple years ago because they were digitally lightening model's skin.

Back in the early days of Saturday Night Live they did a spoof of a TV talk show called "Black Perspective".  Garret Morris and civil rights leader Julian Bond started a debate about why people thought white people were smarter than black people. Bond said it was based on the fact that lighter skinned black people (like Bond) were smarter than darker skinned black people (like Morris).