The Fallacy of White Privilege

[fredtoast]

(10-30-2016, 01:11 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Interesting story, but what it doesn't do the work on is what percentage of taxi robberies are done by who. If 60-80% of taxi robberies happen by black men at night, then why are the cab drivers at fault? 

Because it is wrong to treat innocent people like criminals just because of the color of their skin.  

And "blame" or "fault" has nothing to do with proving there is a white privilege.  Basically you are saying "Yes there is a white privilege but we deserve it because we are superior as a race."

(10-30-2016, 01:11 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That said, a decade ago (when that story was talking about with Glover), 84% of NY cab drivers were immigrants. Bangladesh, India, Haiti, Pakistan mostly. 

This also has nothing to do with proving that a whoite privilege exists.  It does not matter what race of people are giving the white people their privilege.  There is still a white privilege.

We can have a discussion of all these issues about white privilege.  But first you have to admit that a white privilege exists.

[Beaker]

(10-30-2016, 01:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote:   But first you have to admit that a white privilege exists.

It does....its already called racism.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-30-2016, 01:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because it is wrong to treat innocent people like criminals just because of the color of their skin.  

And "blame" or "fault" has nothing to do with proving there is a white privilege.  Basically you are saying "Yes there is a white privilege but we deserve it because we are superior as a race."



This also has nothing to do with proving that a whoite privilege exists.  It does not matter what race of people are giving the white people their privilege.  There is still a white privilege.

We can have a discussion of all these issues about white privilege.  But first you have to admit that a white privilege exists.

Sure, once you feed it through the Fred filter of absurd hyperbole and inflammatory BS, I imagine that's what you saw.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
How about this:

I give you a choice between two doors, both of them have the possibility of $1m behind them.

Door A: Has an 8% chance of blowing up when you open it, and a 92% chance of having $1m behind it.
Door B: Has a 2% chance of blowing up when you open it, and a 98% chance of having $1m behind it.

You have to choose one, so which door do you choose?

[fredtoast]

(10-30-2016, 09:47 AM)Beaker Wrote: It does....its already called racism.

Not really.

Minorities can be racists but it does not create a privilege.

So there is a basic difference between "white privilege" and "racism".   Racism only creates a privilege for the majority.

[fredtoast]

(10-31-2016, 03:53 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: How about this:

I give you a choice between two doors, both of them have the possibility of $1m behind them.

Door A: Has an 8% chance of blowing up when you open it, and a 92% chance of having $1m behind it.
Door B: Has a 2% chance of blowing up when you open it, and a 98% chance of having $1m behind it.

You have to choose one, so which door do you choose?

This has nothing to do with treating innocent people like criminals just because of the color of their skin.

No matter how you try to spin it you are saying that white individuals deserve to be treated better just because of the color of their skin.  And that is a white privilege because it leads to innocent black people being treated like criminals and white people being treated like non-criminals based on the color of their skin instead of their actual guilt or innocence.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-01-2016, 11:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This has nothing to do with treating innocent people like criminals just because of the color of their skin.

No matter how you try to spin it you are saying that white individuals deserve to be treated better just because of the color of their skin.  And that is a white privilege because it leads to innocent black people being treated like criminals and white people being treated like non-criminals based on the color of their skin instead of their actual guilt or innocence.

Yet you refused to answer the question.

Everyone does risk assessments in their everyday life:
"Should I eat this lunchmeat or has it gone bad?" 
"Should I speed up to make the orange light before it turns red?"
"Is that shortcut through the alley worth the time saved?"

According to the FBI in 2012, 54.9% of all robbery arrests were African Americans. This is despite the fact that African Americans as of the 2010 census were 12.1% of the US population. That is more than 4.5x over-representation of their population.

I never said it was a matter of white people deserving to be treated better. But way to automatically assume people are racist.

Ask yourself why they didn't also use a person of Asian descent in their little taxi study. They were 1.0% of the robbery arrests in 2012, despite being 3.6% of the US population in 2010. Less than a third of their representation. You think taxis would have drove away from them in the dark?


Meanwhile people of Asian descent make the most money of anyone in the US, have the lowest employment rate of anyone in the US, the highest amount of 2 parent families of anyone in the US, and the lowest crime rate based upon their total population of anyone in the US.

But somehow people always make it White vs Black. Those people are the racists. It's a matter of law abiding vs non-law abiding and people making the decision that statistically puts them in the position of least possible harm. Simple as that. That is why even the article says during daylight, both hailed down 40 cabs without a problem.



- - - - - - - - - -
2012 FBI Stats:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

2010 Census Info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States_Census#Census_2010

[fredtoast]

(11-01-2016, 03:08 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: According to the FBI in 2012, 54.9% of all robbery arrests were African Americans. This is despite the fact that African Americans as of the 2010 census were 12.1% of the US population. That is more than 4.5x over-representation of their population.

But somehow people always make it White vs Black. Those people are the racists. It's a matter of law abiding vs non-law abiding. Simple as that.

If it was about "law-abiding" versus "non law=abiding" then taxi drivers would never pick up men.

Men account for 89% of all arrests for murder, 88%  of all robberies, 77% of aggravated assaults, and 73% of all simple assaults.  A man is 7 to 9 times as likely to commit a violent crime as a woman.  So why do these taxi drivers ever pick up men when they are so much more likely to commit a violent crime than a woman?

It is about race and it is a clear privilege for white people.  Even though white males are part of the most violent criminal demographic in the country they will not be discriminated against because they are WHITE.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-01-2016, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it was about "law-abiding" versus "non law=abiding" then taxi drivers would never pick up men.

Men account for 89% of all arrests for murder, 88%  of all robberies, 77% of aggravated assaults, and 73% of all simple assaults.  A man is 7 to 9 times as likely to commit a violent crime as a woman.  So why do these taxi drivers ever pick up men when they are so much more likely to commit a violent crime than a woman?

It is about race and it is a clear privilege for white people.  Even though white males are part of the most violent criminal demographic in the country they will not be discriminated against because they are WHITE.

So men are the majority of violent criminals... and I just showed African Americans are vastly ahead of their population as far as crime goes.

So that means you agree that the most likely person to commit a crime would be an African American male, which is exactly what the "experiment" used.

You can make this a racist thing/white privilege thing all you want, but that statistics blatantly show the truth. It would be great if everyone could be treated equally, but in order for that to happen, they need to act equally. That's currently not happening.

You say men account for 89% of all murder arrests, but that number is 48.2% for white people, and 49.2% for African American people. Despite white people making up 69.1% of the population (so well under-representated in murder) and African American people making up 12.1% of the population.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, your numbers about men are being skewed by African American men.

If 89% of all murder arrests are men, that is 7,570 murders going off of those 2012 FBI numbers. If the murder rates hold the same for just men as they do for both genders of an ethnicity and you do an admittedly winged 50% male/female population split, that means..

~3,649 murder arrests out of 34.55% of the population that's white males
and
~3,724 murder arrests out of 6.05% of the population that's African American males


- - - - -
Side note, way to completely ignore a full third of my post about Asian Americans because it doesn't fit your love of calling people racists.

[fredtoast]

(11-01-2016, 04:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: So men are the majority of violent criminals... and I just showed African Americans are vastly ahead of their population as far as crime goes.

So that means you agree that the most likely person to commit a crime would be an African American male, which is exactly what the "experiment" used.

You can make this a racist thing/white privilege thing all you want, but that statistics blatantly show the truth. It would be great if everyone could be treated equally, but in order for that to happen, they need to act equally. That's currently not happening.

You say men account for 89% of all murder arrests, but that number is 48.2% for white people, and 49.2% for African American people. Despite white people making up 69.1% of the population (so well under-representated in murder) and African American people making up 12.1% of the population.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, your numbers about men are being skewed by African American men.

If 89% of all murder arrests are men, that is 7,570 murders going off of those 2012 FBI numbers. If the murder rates hold the same for just men as they do for both genders of an ethnicity and you do an admittedly winged 50% male/female population split, that means..

~3,649 murder arrests out of 34.55% of the population that's white males
and
~3,724 murder arrests out of 6.05% of the population that's African American males


- - - - -
Side note, way to completely ignore a full third of my post about Asian Americans because it doesn't fit your love of calling people racists.

You still don't get it.

Treating innocent people like they are criminals just because of the color of their skin is racism and it creates a big privilege for white people.

And white men, despite being in the most dangerous violent demographic, will not be discriminated against because they are white.  And the difference in crime rate between the sexes is not influenced by race.  It is about the same difference between the sexes for both whites and blacks.  Men are many times more likely to be violent criminals thsan women, yet white men are never discriminated against because of this.  And that is because they are in the majority.

Why shouldn't everyone treat you like a violent criminal since men are so much more likely to be a violent criminal based on your demographic?  You should never get a ride in a taxi.

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2016, 04:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get it.

Treating innocent people like they are criminals just because of the color of their skin is racism and it creates a big privilege for white people.

And white men, despite being in the most dangerous violent demographic, will not be discriminated against because they are white.  And the difference in crime rate between the sexes is not influenced by race.  It is about the same difference between the sexes for both whites and blacks.  Men are many times more likely to be violent criminals thsan women, yet white men are never discriminated against because of this.  And that is because they are in the majority.

Why shouldn't everyone treat you like a violent criminal since men are so much more likely to be a violent criminal based on your demographic?  You should never get a ride in a taxi.

Did the study posted also include a woman compared to a man? With out that referring to the study while making your claim is useless. 

[fredtoast]

(11-01-2016, 04:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Did the study posted also include a woman compared to a man? With out that referring to the study while making your claim is useless. 

Everyone agrees that the study showed a privilege for white men over black men.  It proves white privilege.  All we are talking about now is if the privilege is justified.

Do you think it is okay to treat all men like violent criminals just because of their sex?

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2016, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Everyone agrees that the study showed a privilege for white men over black men.  It proves white privilege.  All we are talking about now is if the privilege is justified.

Do you think it is okay to treat all men like violent criminals just because of their sex?

But you are suggesting one privilege exists because of the study used and not based on the driver's thoughts of criminal demographic.

If the same study were done with a man and a woman. If the woman were picked up more often it would refute the assertion you are making and support the counter. You are the one introducing the unknown into the equation. LL did not, he simply offered a counter for the results.  

[fredtoast]

(11-01-2016, 04:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But you are suggesting one privilege exists because of the study used and not based on the driver's thoughts of criminal demographic.

If the same study were done with a man and a woman. If the woman were picked up more often it would refute the assertion you are making and support the counter. You are the one introducing the unknown into the equation. LL did not, he simply offered a counter for the results.  

I am introducing a new element to show you guys that it is not "Okay" to treat innocent people like criminals just because they fall into a certain demographic.  Because the discussion has shifted from "Does white privilege exist" to "Is it okay to treat white people better just based on the color of their skin".

I bring up the issue of men being the most violent criminal members of society to show what hypocrites you all are.  None of you agree that men should all be treated like criminals simply because of their sex.

Get it now?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-01-2016, 04:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get it.

Treating innocent people like they are criminals just because of the color of their skin is racism and it creates a big privilege for white people.

And white men, despite being in the most dangerous violent demographic, will not be discriminated against because they are white.  And the difference in crime rate between the sexes is not influenced by race.  It is about the same difference between the sexes for both whites and blacks.  Men are many times more likely to be violent criminals thsan women, yet white men are never discriminated against because of this.  And that is because they are in the majority.

Why shouldn't everyone treat you like a violent criminal since men are so much more likely to be a violent criminal based on your demographic?  You should never get a ride in a taxi.

Except I just showed you numbers that say African American males commit more murders than white males, despite there being roughly 6.5x more white males. So how can white males be the most dangerous?

Also males ARE treated differently than women when it comes to potential crime.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/04/02/ex-uber-driver-creates-ride-sharing-service-women/82557796/

Not to mention, how many daycare people are male? How many kindergarten teachers are male? How many babysitters are male? People are inherently less trusting of males around their children. That's why single women near a playground isn't weird. A single male near a playground is treated as suspicious.

When a couple gets divorced, who usually gets the children?

When police respond to a domestic dispute, who usually gets arrested/asked to leave?

When you see Drinking and Driving commercials in Ohio, have you ever seen a drunk driver who ISN'T a white male?

In Japan, they have certain trains that men aren't allowed to ride.


There exists plenty of biased against males tendency to be more crime breaking, the only difference is, they don't complain that it's racism or sexism every time it happens. Generally no huge stink about it is made because statistically, there's some basis in their bias.

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2016, 05:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am introducing a new element to show you guys that it is not "Okay" to treat innocent people like criminals just because they fall into a certain demographic.  Because the discussion has shifted from "Does white privilege exist" to "Is it okay to treat white people better just based on the color of their skin".

I bring up the issue of men being the most violent criminal members of society to show what hypocrites you all are.  None of you agree that men should all be treated like criminals simply because of their sex.

Get it now?

Nope, and i doubt that I'm the one having a difficult time grasping the debate.

You assert the cabbies picked up white dude over black dude because of 'white privilege". LL has suggested this occurred because of statistics showing which of the two is more likely to commit a crime toward you.

You counter was "This is not possible because men commit crimes more often that women". That assertion had zero merit based on the study and the claims made by each party and could only be supported if a white male and a black female were compared. 

I would ask If you get it now, but I know the answer. 

[fredtoast]

(11-01-2016, 05:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope, and i doubt that I'm the one having a difficult time grasping the debate.

You assert the cabbies picked up white dude over black dude because of 'white privilege". LL has suggested this occurred because of statistics showing which of the two is more likely to commit a crime toward you.

You counter was "This is not possible because men commit crimes more often that women".

Here is my point.

Even if cabbies pick up white men over black men because oif the difference in crime rate for one demographic that proves that a white privilege exists.

But "white privilege" is not just based on a perception of difference in crime rate because if it was then white men would all be treated like criminals but they clearly are not.

So we are now at the point where I am asking you all if it is okay to treat all mean like criminals because they belong to the most violent criminal demographic in the United States.  But for some reason none of you are responding to this.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-01-2016, 05:03 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except I just showed you numbers that say African American males commit more murders than white males, despite there being roughly 6.5x more white males. So how can white males be the most dangerous?

Also males ARE treated differently than women when it comes to potential crime.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/04/02/ex-uber-driver-creates-ride-sharing-service-women/82557796/

Not to mention, how many daycare people are male? How many kindergarten teachers are male? How many babysitters are male? People are inherently less trusting of males around their children. That's why single women near a playground isn't weird. A single male near a playground is treated as suspicious.

When a couple gets divorced, who usually gets the children?

When police respond to a domestic dispute, who usually gets arrested/asked to leave?

When you see Drinking and Driving commercials in Ohio, have you ever seen a drunk driver who ISN'T a white male?

In Japan, they have certain trains that men aren't allowed to ride.


There exists plenty of biased against males tendency to be more crime breaking, the only difference is, they don't complain that it's racism or sexism every time it happens. Generally no huge stink about it is made because statistically, there's some basis in their bias.

(11-01-2016, 06:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is my point.

Even if cabbies pick up white men over black men because oif the difference in crime rate for one demographic that proves that a white privilege exists.

But "white privilege" is not just based on a perception of difference in crime rate because if it was then white men would all be treated like criminals but they clearly are not.

So we are now at the point where I am asking you all if it is okay to treat all mean like criminals because they belong to the most violent criminal demographic in the United States.  But for some reason none of you are responding to this.

???

Pretty sure I did. You just clearly didn't like to acknowledge you're trying to argue something stupid/wrong.

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2016, 06:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is my point.

Even if cabbies pick up white men over black men because oif the difference in crime rate for one demographic that proves that a white privilege exists.

But "white privilege" is not just based on a perception of difference in crime rate because if it was then white men would all be treated like criminals but they clearly are not.

So we are now at the point where I am asking you all if it is okay to treat all mean like criminals because they belong to the most violent criminal demographic in the United States.  But for some reason none of you are responding to this.

Your point has not been made, as you are making false assumptions given the study you are trying to cite and somehow suggesting folks are just treating others like criminals, by introducing a dynamic that was not researched. And this is giving you the benefit of the doubt that the study you are referencing showed a bias.

I know it is pointless, but I'll provide this illustration for others that fail to see the fallacy in your point:

A study is conducted and it was found that a white guy was picked up by cabbies a little more frequently than a black male. 

Observer A asserts that study shows that there is a white privilege because the man with less pigment in his skin is picked up more frequently

Observer B posts a study that shows whites tip cabbies more handsomely than blacks; therefore, Observer B states the reason for the variance is because of propensity to tip instead of skin pigment.

Observer A retorts with: This cannot be the issue because women tip better than men.  

[Westwood Bengal]

I had some thoughts last night about this. My son dressed up as harry potter, and due to his complexion, age and hair, he makes for a pretty good "sorcerers stone" aged Harry. We walked around trick or treating all night, and got a dozen or more compliments on how much like Harry he looks. And not just from the people handing out candy. People we passed on the streets were complimenting him. Naturally, he was pretty stoked by all the attention.

We live in an almost equally integrated neighborhood.  As one black family was kind enough to compliment my kiddo in passing, I looked at their son, who was a bit younger than mine, and dressed in a captain america outfit. It occurred to me that at no point that night will their son ever hear that he looks exactly like captain america. And it is not because of the quality of the costume (which was actually pretty nice).

I don't feel the need to extrapolate further, as it is pretty obvious where the privilege lies. And this isn't meant to shame anyone or american culture, as it it experienced.  It just is meant to reflect my empathy as a parent to a parent of "the other" in out culture.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-01-2016, 06:48 PM)Westwood Bengal Wrote: I had some thoughts last night about this. My son dressed up as harry potter, and due to his complexion, age and hair, he makes for a pretty good "sorcerers stone" aged Harry. We walked around tricker treating all night, and got a dozen or more compliments on how much like Harry he looks. And not just from the people handing out candy. People we passed on the streets were complimenting him. Naturally, he was pretty stoked by all the attention.

We live in an almost equally integrated neighborhood.  As one black family was kind enough to compliment my kiddo in passing, I looked at their son, who was a bit younger than mine, and dressed in a captain america outfit. It occurred to me that at no point that night will their son ever hear that he looks exactly like captain america. And it is not because of the quality of the costume (which was actually pretty nice).

I don't feel the need to extrapolate further, as it is pretty obvious where the privilege lies. And this isn't meant to shame anyone or american culture, as it it experienced.  It just is meant to reflect my empathy as a parent to a parent of "the other" in out culture.

He could if your neighbors are comic book nerds like a couple of my friends. Captain America retired or something and the new one is actually African American now. He's the dude with the wings in the movies.




Also.. Iron Man I guess retired or something too and the new one is an African American girl... so Iron Girl? Or maybe still Iron Man? No idea how that works, honestly.



Huzzah for random things said by my friends occasionally getting stored in my memory to be pulled out at random times.