The Fallacy of White Privilege

[fredtoast]

(11-16-2016, 11:20 AM)PhilHos Wrote: You are promoting a false narrative whose only purpose is to keep them down. By telling them that it's whitey's fault they can't get ahead and that whitey needs to "check his privilege", you're telling them they can't and don't need to do anything to overcome obstacles in their lives. This causes them to become stagnant get nowhere in life. If you want people to become successful, you don't tell them that their problems are the fault of someone else and that other people need to change. Which runner has the better chance of succeeding in a footrace: the one who spends all his time telling the other runners not to run so fast or the one who spends all his time training and bettering himself?
But, hey, if you want to keep calling me a racist and/or white supremacist, go right ahead. Apparently, that's the only weapon you've got in your arsenal because the facts just don't back you up.

None of this makes any sense.

You are the one who assumes that all minorities are lazy and will not work hard to better themselves.  I have never said anything like that.

Nowhere have I said that white people have to "run slower".  You just made that up.

Let me ask you this Phil.  If you know that one of your children is going to face an obstacle do you tell her about it?  Or are you afraid that it will just make her give up and not try?  When you tell your daughters that life is tough and they are going to have to deal with problems is your "only purpose to keep them down"?

Oh wait, your kids are all white.  So they would never be lazy and give up just because they are told something is difficult, right?

[*PhilHos*]

(11-17-2016, 01:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Educate yourself.

Everywhere across America there are festivals held by white people to celebrate their Irish, German, Greek, English, etc heritage.  None of them are accused of racism.

The only problem with "white pride" is when it is symbolized by a Confederate flag or a swastika.  

Celebrating one's national heritage is not the same as celebrating one's race. Do we have Black Pride celebrations? Or do we have Ethiopian Celebrations, Nigerian Celebrations, Kenyan Celebrations, etc.?

Seems to me that YOU are the one that needs to be educated in the difference between race and nationality.

(11-17-2016, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yers therec are affirmative action programs.  But in order to get a job through affirmative action you still have to be qualified for the job.  There is not place that a black person can walk in a get a job just because he is black.  It is insulting to suggest that people who get jobs through affirmative action are not qualified for the job they get.

With affirmative action, the person getting the job is not always the one that is most qualified. The fact that every time the less qualified person that gets the job it is because of their race (or whatever demographic the affirmative action program is attempting to "help"), then yes, they only got that job because they're black (or whatever demographic the affirmative action program is trying to "help").

(11-17-2016, 02:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Please give me an example of blacks or hispanics being allowed to be "racists to whites" without suffering the same consequences as white who are racists to minorities.

I can give you a list of all the times people have said racist things to me or that I've overheard and nothing happened to those people. There's also similar stories from friends of mine. I have a black coworker that has said some racist stuff about white people publicly and he's still my coworker. Stephen A. Smith oftentimes says some racist things and last I heard, he's still employed.

Consider this: a black person goes into a room full of white people and says all crackers are evil. A white person goes into a room full of black people and says all niggers are evil. Are the responses going to be the same? If you're answer is anything other than 'No' then I know you're full of shit.

(11-17-2016, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is just a complete lie.

A black person who uses a racial slur against a whoite person is just as likely to get beaten up or ostricized as the other way around.

Please give me an example to back up your claim.

How about the time I went into a convenient store in NYC and a black guy in there was ranting about how he wished all white people were dead and then he saw me, stopped what he was saying and then, started yelling at me to stop looking at him and how I owed him reparations and that he was going to enslave me and some other nonsense? As I was leaving, absolutely NO ONE said a thing to him (and I wasn't even the only white person in the store). Or the time I was in Hartford and as I was entering a building, a group of black guys called me all sorts of names - including racist ones - simply because I dared to look in their direction? Nothing happened to them.

In my experience, I've seen far more racist black people say some nasty shit and most of them faced absolutely ZERO negative consequences.

(11-17-2016, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Your definition includes the word "available".  So by your own definition not all white people have to benefit.  All that matters is that the benefit is available to all white people.

2.  I missed where you demonstrated how all white people did not benefit from "white privilege".  I guarantee that you have never been stopped, detained, or searched by the police just because you are white.  You have never been denied a job interview because you are white.  You have never been denied a housing opportunity because you are white.

1. But your "evidences" of white privilege have not been demonstrated to be available to all white people.

2. Well, first off, go to the OP. And then see my first few posts in here. Secondly, nope I have not. And I have known black people that have also not been stopped because of their skin color and the other nonsense you have spewed. Plus, I linked an article from a white person who was stopped for being white in a black neighborhood.

(11-17-2016, 02:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: None of this makes any sense.

Learn to read, then.

(11-17-2016, 02:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one who assumes that all minorities are lazy and will not work hard to better themselves.  I have never said anything like that.

No, I'm not, but facts haven't stopped you before.
Also, I never said you said that, I said you implied it.

(11-17-2016, 02:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Let me ask you this Phil.  If you know that one of your children is going to face an obstacle do you tell her about it?  Or are you afraid that it will just make her give up and not try?  When you tell your daughters that life is tough and they are going to have to deal with problems is your "only purpose to keep them down"?

If I KNOW they're going to face a REAL problem, I might tell them if they're ready to hear it. But I'll also tell them what THEY can do to overcome it. I don't want them to focus on where the blame for the problem lies, but only on what they can CONTROL. 
In this scenario, you would tell your girls there's a problem but it's the other person who needs to change in order for the problem to be fixed. Tell me, how does that help your girls? Might that cause them to think they don't need to do anything until the other person changes? Might they just sit around and say their problems are because of the other person and do nothing of their own to overcome?
Are there successful black people in America? Did they become successful because they overcame their problems? Or did they become successful because white people got out of their way?

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: In this scenario, you would tell your girls there's a problem but it's the other person who needs to change in order for the problem to be fixed. Tell me, how does that help your girls? Might that cause them to think they don't need to do anything until the other person changes? Might they just sit around and say their problems are because of the other person and do nothing of their own to overcome?

This is a perfect example of the different way we see minorities.

When i told my oldest daughter, who is very competitive about her grades and college prospects, that students from elite private high schools would have an advantage over her because they were offered a wider range of courses and could attend expensive summer education camps it motivated her to work harder.  So I don't see how talking about white privilege would hurt minorities.

You, on the other hand, view minorities as inferior people who will just give up because they are too lazy to work hard.

There is absolutely no proof that speaking the truth about white privilege will hurt minorities.  that theory is only popular among people who see minorities as inferior people.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-19-2016, 02:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of the different way we see minorities.

When i told my oldest daughter, who is very competitive about her grades and college prospects, that students from elite private high schools would have an advantage over her because they were offered a wider range of courses and could attend expensive summer education camps it motivated her to work harder.  So I don't see how talking about white privilege would hurt minorities.

You, on the other hand, view minorities as inferior people who will just give up because they are too lazy to work hard.

There is absolutely no proof that speaking the truth about white privilege will hurt minorities.  that theory is only popular among people who see minorities as inferior people.

Ah, I see you still rely on your favorite go-to, canned response.  Funny thing is, I've never read where Phil asserted any view of his that minorities were inferior.

Stop making stuff up.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 02:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Ah, I see you still rely on your favorite go-to, canned response.  Funny thing is, I've never read where Phil asserted any view of his that minorities were inferior.

Stop making stuff up.

Here is how Phil has repeatedly said that minorities will react to being told there is a "white privilerge.

(11-16-2016, 11:20 AM)PhilHos Wrote:  Which runner has the better chance of succeeding in a footrace: the one who spends all his time telling the other runners not to run so fast or the one who spends all his time training and bettering himself?

Apparently Phil knows that minorities will not train to better themselves if there is any mention of a white privilege

(11-19-2016, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote:  Might they just sit around and say their problems are because of the other person and do nothing of their own to overcome?

Again Phil knows that minorities will just "sit around and do nothing".


And that is the difference between Phil and myself.  I don't think minorities are so weak and lazy that they will just give up if anyone dares to mention that white people have some privileges.

I am not afraid that my daughters will just give up and do nothing if I tell them that some people have an advantage over them.  And I'll bet Phil is not afraid to tell his children this also, but he is not worried about them giving up because they are white like him.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-19-2016, 03:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is how Phil has repeatedly said that minorities will react to being told there is a "white privilerge.



Apparently Phil knows that minorities will not train to better themselves if there is any mention of a white privilege


Again Phil knows that minorities will just "sit around and do nothing".


And that is the difference between Phil and myself.  I don't think minorities are so weak and lazy that they will just give up if anyone dares to mention that white people have some privileges.

I am not afraid that my daughters will just give up and do nothing if I tell them that some people have an advantage over them.  And I'll bet Phil is not afraid to tell his children this also, but he is not worried about them giving up because they are white like him.

That is not what Phil is saying, at all.  You are saying that he's saying something, but what you are stating simply isn't true.

Stop making stuff up.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-19-2016, 02:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of the different way we see minorities.

When i told my oldest daughter, who is very competitive about her grades and college prospects, that students from elite private high schools would have an advantage over her because they were offered a wider range of courses and could attend expensive summer education camps it motivated her to work harder.  So I don't see how talking about white privilege would hurt minorities.

You, on the other hand, view minorities as inferior people who will just give up because they are too lazy to work hard.

There is absolutely no proof that speaking the truth about white privilege will hurt minorities.  that theory is only popular among people who see minorities as inferior people.

It has nothing to do with how I view minorities. It's how I view people. Regardless of race, if you tell someone that a problem they encounter is somebody else's fault and that the solution to the problem is that the other person needs to change, then you're going to find people with no incentive to work hard. That's not to say that some won't, but by-and-large, human beings regardless of race, tend to take the easy way out. I see it with those that I work with everyday and I see it in blacks, whites, hispanics, etc.

But, hey, at least, you're trying to be more subtle in your attempt to call me a racist simply because I disagree with you.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 03:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is not what Phil is saying, at all.  You are saying that he's saying something, but what you are stating simply isn't true.

I posted direct quotes.  There is no dispute about what he said.

Phil thinks that if you tell minorities that there is a white privilege it will "hold them down"  because they will all just "sit around and do nothing of their own to overcome it".

In fact Phil has gone so far as to claim that the SOLE purpose of mentioning white privilege is to hold back the minorities.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-19-2016, 03:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1) Phil thinks that if you tell minorities that there is a white privilege it will "hold them down"  because they will all just "sit around and do nothing of their own to overcome it".

2) In fact Phil has gone so far as to claim that the SOLE purpose of mentioning white privilege is to hold back the minorities.

1) No, I didn't. I said they MIGHT. Key word there. The fact remains, though, that people (of all races) in America, when incentivized to do nothing, do just that. I see so many able-bodied people (white, black AND hispanic) that refuse to get a job simply because they want to keep their benefits that they get for doing absolutely nothing. Why should they get a job that pays them less AND takes away some of their free time when they can just do what they want all day every day AND get money and benefits along with it? That's not to say there aren't people who work hard at overcoming any and all obstacles, but facts are facts, even if you don't like them, fred.

2) I admit when I'm wrong and I'm wrong here. White privilege serves more than 1 purpose. Besides holding back minorities, it is also used to keep white people from succeeding. There might be other, small purposes (like shutting white people up), but those are the 2 main ones.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 03:52 PM)PhilHos Wrote: 1) No, I didn't. I said they MIGHT. Key word there. The fact remains, though, that people (of all races) in America, when incentivized to do nothing, do just that.

Again, in my eye pointing out white privilege is an incentive for minorities to work harder.  Just like telling my daughter that students from a better high school will have an advantage over her.


But that is because we view them differently.  I don't view minorities as the type who are too lazy to help themselves.  Instead i see them like my daughter, as people who are willing to step up and face a challenge.

I just don't see how pointing out the truth of white privilege is just an incentive to fail.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Why does nobody talk about "Asian privilege"? They have a lower unemployment rate, higher average income, highest rate of two parent families, highest education rate, and lowest arrest rate of anyone in this entire country.

Oh right, because then Fred couldn't as easily just call everyone racist white supremecists when they disagree with "white privilege".

Silly Asians, following the law, working hard, and taking advantage of opportunity. Ruining the narrative.

[Belsnickel]

(11-19-2016, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Celebrating one's national heritage is not the same as celebrating one's race. Do we have Black Pride celebrations? Or do we have Ethiopian Celebrations, Nigerian Celebrations, Kenyan Celebrations, etc.?

Seems to me that YOU are the one that needs to be educated in the difference between race and nationality.

I don't really care about the argument continuing on here about white privilege. I just kind of wanted to comment on this. Race and ethnicity/nationality are indeed two different things. Within the white race, however, we have the benefit of knowing our distinct ethnicities. We can trace back to our ancestors in England, Ireland, Scandinavia, wherever, and find people that we can identify with in that way.

For the black race, that is really their ethnicity as well for most of them. The borders that the European colonialists put in place really didn't apply to their people. Their ethnic cultures are all but lost to the ages because their ancestors were yanked from a land that was then colonized and ruled over by people that had no understanding nor concern for tribal boundaries and cultural divisions. So being black can be as much an ethnic identification as a racial one because that is all the connection they will have to their culture.

This isn't to say that there aren't any specific ethnic celebrations for those of African descent. I have mentioned before that there is an annual Igbo festival near me, but for most black people they have no way of knowing their tribal ancestry.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 06:43 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Why does nobody talk about "Asian privilege"? They have a lower unemployment rate, higher average income, highest rate of two parent families, highest education rate, and lowest arrest rate of anyone in this entire country.

Oh right, because then Fred couldn't as easily just call everyone racist white supremecists when they disagree with "white privilege".

Silly Asians, following the law, working hard, and taking advantage of opportunity. Ruining the narrative.

You clearly do not even understand the concept of what "white privilege" means.  If you did you would not be trying to argue that the success of Asian immigrants proves it does not exist.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-19-2016, 07:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You clearly do not even understand the concept of what "white privilege" means.  If you did you would not be trying to argue that the success of Asian immigrants proves it does not exist.

What, because he shows you a clear example of a minority group that succeeds, despite the so called "White Privilege", you don't agree with him?

Is that because it dispels your feeble attempts to make it seem like Whites control everything?  Or that certain minority groups have not been led into dependence from entitlement programs?

Have you ever been to California?  Have you ever accidentally went into an all-Asian marketplace?  I have.  Let me tell you.  They don't care if you are there, or not.  They don't need or want your money.  They will not speak English to accommodate you.

Why do you think this is so?  I feel it is because they are here to succeed, and don't give a care about government subsidies.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 07:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What, because he shows you a clear example of a minority group that succeeds, despite the so called "White Privilege", you don't agree with him?

Is that because it dispels your feeble attempts to make it seem like Whites control everything?  Or that certain minority groups have not been led into dependence from entitlement programs?

You also fail to grasp the concept of white privilege.

Every time we have this discussion certain people rush in and claim "some whites fail" or "some minorities succeed" and then brag that they have proven that white privilege doe not exist.

They don't even understand the subject yet they fall all over each other making smug remarks about how brilliant they are.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-19-2016, 09:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You also fail to grasp the concept of white privilege.

Every time we have this discussion certain people rush in and claim "some whites fail" or "some minorities succeed" and then brag that they have proven that white privilege doe not exist.

They don't even understand the subject yet they fall all over each other making smug remarks about how brilliant they are.

Likely because the fallacy of "White Privilege" only works for people that buy into it...

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 09:54 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Likely because the fallacy of "White Privilege" only works for people that buy into it...

What does this have to do with anything I said?

The fact that some whites fail or that some minorities thrive in no way proves that there is not "white privilege". Anyone who understands anything about logic will understand this.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-19-2016, 09:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What does this have to do with anything I said?

The fact that some whites fail or that some minorities thrive in no way proves that there is not "white privilege". Anyone who understands anything about logic will understand this.

Hey, for the same reason that you can go around, putting words in people's mouths, is the same reason that I can assert whatever I choose.  And furthermore, anyone that understands anything about logical fallacy can see that your arguments are completely unfounded.

[Beaker]

(11-19-2016, 05:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, in my eye pointing out white privilege is an incentive for minorities to work harder.  Just like telling my daughter that students from a better high school will have an advantage over her.


But that is because we view them differently.  I don't view minorities as the type who are too lazy to help themselves.  Instead i see them like my daughter, as people who are willing to step up and face a challenge.

I just don't see how pointing out the truth of white privilege is just an incentive to fail.

Yeah, the old "you gotta try real hard, but it won't matter because whitey is holding you down and will always have an advantage over you no matter what" thing is motivational genius.

[fredtoast]

(11-19-2016, 10:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:   And furthermore, anyone that understands anything about logical fallacy can see that your arguments are completely unfounded.

What logical fallacy?

I think you are using words that you do not even understand.