The Fight Against Fascists (I Can't Believe This Exists)
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The Fight Against Fascists (I Can't Believe This Exists)
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06-07-2021, 05:19 PM
(06-07-2021, 04:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The comparison was between US soldiers who stormed Normandy, who fought against actual Nazis to help liberate mutiple countries and millions upon millions of people, and Antifa and modern events. The utter irony being that those soldiers in WW2 would be considered fascists by the standards of Antifa based on their politics. 
06-07-2021, 05:21 PM
(06-07-2021, 05:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, The Lincoln Project is a conservative group. The folks who made that ad were making ads for the GOP before Trump took hold of the party. I just want to make sure you understand that. They are in no way on the left, let alone the ultra-left. They aren't even centrist. They are anti-Trump conservatives. So you follow the line of thinking that just because he was bad at enacting his facist goals, that absolves him of the classification. I disagree. ![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png) 
06-07-2021, 05:27 PM
(06-07-2021, 05:21 PM)treee Wrote: So you follow the line of thinking that just because he was bad at enacting his facist goals, that absolves him of the classification. I disagree. Not entirely. I read the thoughts of some experts on the matter and agreed with their reasoning. Interestingly, though, I hadn't seen the third article in the series that was put up on Vox in January after the attempted insurrection. Apparently, that event pushed some of those experts over the line: https://www.vox.com/22225472/fascism-definition-trump-fascist-examples Yes, for anyone sneering at Vox, it is what it is. But, it's actually a good discussion that started with these experts in 2015, was picked up in 2020, and then against in January, 2021.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR 
06-07-2021, 07:10 PM
I guess saying "fighting extreme right authoritarian ultranationalism" just doesn't roll off the tongue as well as fascism.
06-07-2021, 07:37 PM
(06-07-2021, 02:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Even if you believe that to be true, can we agree that using the events of WWII to create a parallel to the issues today is not only wrong but is in incredibly poor taste, especially on the anniversary of D-Day? Depends on which issues. Connecting WWII, especially the causes, to the global political situation today, with the increasing turn to authoritarian governments (including the authoritarian turn in domestic U.S. politics) is not only appropriate but long overdue if the U.S. stands for liberal democracy and wants that to prevail at home and abroad. It seems a large mass of the U.S. public has lost its ability to recognize authoritarian politics, and it is creating a crisis in our democracy. Labeling the U.S. forces landing at Normandy "ANTIFA," however, is worse than "poor taste" as it undermines the worthy project of identifying authoritarian politics, since it is bound to produce negative reaction in its audience, which would be people like yourself. Few people think of ANTIFA as especially pro-democratic, given their encouragement of spontaneous law-breaking. The right commonly labels them "Left-wing fascists." So to extend their label to the historical fight against anti-fascism creates a confusing side debate and generates anger against what I regard as a good cause. Imagine how well it would work if the Republican National Committee put out a D-Day remembrance video asserting that "Proud Boys" landed at Normandy to save Europe etc. 
06-07-2021, 09:56 PM
I thought the Lincoln Project had a couple of higher ups that were doing weird things with interns or something. I forget the details but i remember hearing something about it months ago ??♂️
06-07-2021, 10:43 PM
(06-07-2021, 03:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I've said before on here, but it absolutely astonishes me how casually people throw around terms like this (nazi, fascist). I'm not sure if these people just have no understanding of history, or if they do and they just don't care as long as it advances their agenda. And I'm not sure which one is scarier either. (Ignorance or manipulation of the facts) Sure, let's pause a moment to consider terminology. I share your astonishment in how casually people throw around terms like "NAZI" and "fascist," and I note, in passing, that you and I have discussed the usage of the term "fascist" before.* I have generally cautioned against calling Trump a "fascist," while adding that he is definitely authoritarian, and that appears to be a major part of his appeal. (Refusing the "fascist" term shouldn't let him or his die hard supporters off the hook.) But let's remember that calling people like Hillary, Obama, and Biden "leftists" is also a stretch, and I cannot imagine what "hyperleftism" could be, except some kind of push to nationalize banks, railroads, automobile manufacture, corporate agriculture, along with coal and oil extraction. Is that the Lincoln Project's hidden agenda? Or is it to return the Republican party back to its roots in limited government and social conservatism? I'd argue that nowadays people learn much of their political terminology from the MSM and RWM, not from reading primary sources and historical/political science scholarship. So if the RWM is calling liberals and centrists "the left" for decades, I'm not surprised millions who grow up in that media ecosphere adopt their usage, effecting a concomitant rightwards shift of the political spectrum. Someone who contests that usage may sound like an oddball or even "biased" to persons whose views are formed in that media ecosphere, especially the RW variety, where difference is so frequently represented as "hypocrisy," "lies," and "hidden agendas." The expansive reference of "fascism" may be part of this confusion. Obama has been called both a "leftist" and a "fascist," and some right wingers classify fascism as "leftism." The visibility of ANTIFA doesn't help matters, as our entire government and economic system become enveloped in "fascism" in discussion of their actions. People with little background in history or political science are apt to dismiss more traditional use of this terminology as based on "personal opinion." "Not how we hear how our favorite news commentators using it, so wrong!" There are important differences between types of authoritarian regimes and politics which can be described and catalogued just as we can describe the rules of different sports. Golf is certainly a sport, as is baseball, but if you play baseball I don't call you a "golfer" just because both are sports and you are hitting a ball with a stick. Every authoritarian is not a fascist, though general similarities may make the boundaries unclear in individual cases, and debated by historians and political scientists. I think the most important task at the moment for progressives and liberal democrats is to make clear the "sport rules" of authoritarian/illiberal politics so that they can be recognized when they appear abroad--or in our own midst. Making fascism the face of authoritarianism doesn't meet that need well enough. People dismiss illiberal behavior if it's not wearing jackboots and writing manifestos for national renewal and racial purification. Also, authoritarian regimes can be pretty bad long before the reach the threshold of fascism. *Politics and Religion, #51, 55. http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Politics-and-Religion?pid=995353&highlight=hitler#pid995353. 
06-07-2021, 10:55 PM
If Pelosi and Pence were executed on 1/6, the presidential election results were thrown out, Trump stayed in power like he wanted, the political opposition was silenced like he wanted, police beat up and suppressed any parties that gathered to voice their displeasure like he wanted. Would that qualify as fascist?
Just because I have diarrhea doesn’t mean I didn’t take a shit.
06-07-2021, 11:26 PM
(06-07-2021, 10:55 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If Pelosi and Pence were executed on 1/6, the presidential election results were thrown out, Trump stayed in power like he wanted, the political opposition was silenced like he wanted, police beat up and suppressed any parties that gathered to voice their displeasure like he wanted. Would that qualify as fascist? Excellent question, but I would say no, just based on the details given, Trump's history so far, and the kind of resistance he would eventually meet. It's not just about seizing power. Mussolini was a fascist before he seized power. Seizing it did not make him one. Stalin was not a fascist before seizing power. Seizing it did not make him one. I'd need to hear more about the ideology binding Trump's followers to him. Some of THEM clearly were/are fascist, but that's not enough to make the regime fascist or a majority of his followers, and not Trump himself. And I'd need to see where Trump went with his coup. I'm thinking initially he'd still claim legitimacy by appealing to the U.S. Constitution and the principle of free and democratic election--which the "criminal" Biden thwarted. With his increase in power, that might fall, step by step, to the wayside, to be replaced by some form of Fuehrerprinzip (which can only work with mass assent from his followers and probably most of the "deep state" as well.) That is an important threshold, but I don't think it achievable in the current U.S. Also, there would be considerable resistance to his recapture of power. How would he handle that? Just brute repression doesn't get him over the line. He needs, e.g., a party and a paramilitary steeped in an ideology of sacrifice for the state, and for him above all. He needs to restructure the state's repressive apparatus to reward loyalty to him, not to the Constitution. Also probably not achievable. A true fascist takeover of the U.S. would not be as easy as some think. An authoritarian takeover of some sort--or at least the attempt--is not out of the question, however, if the mass of people who believe the election was stolen and their country has been handed over to agents of globalism continues to expand. Addendum: Hitler and Mussolini were veritable historical scholars compared to Trump. Enough to fill them with grand imperial designs and to interpret themselves as modern incarnations of Prussian and Roman precedents, marking empires on maps and planning heroic battles of world-historical import. Trump has an admired precedent/model, kind of, in Putin. An oligarch consolidating private gain. Sure, Trump wanted a big military parade after he saw one in France. But has he ever imagined directing armies in world historical battles? Presiding over a 21st century reprisal of D'Day, in uniform? And he was mostly for pulling troops out of our miniwars, not expanding them to feed the life of the state. Not sure Trump has a fascist imagination. Surely that is a requirement, though.
06-08-2021, 12:37 AM
(06-07-2021, 11:26 PM)Dill Wrote: Excellent question, but I would say no, just based on the details given, Trump's history so far, and the kind of resistance he would eventually meet. It's not just about seizing power. Fair enough. By this definition https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascism noun (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Every box but one is checked. He has claimed total authority in the past and throwing out democratic election results and taking power would put him in the dictator category. He has forcibly suppressed opposition and his followers help him suppress criticism. His entire shtick is aggressive nationalism and he dabbles with the racism. He cares about money more than anything but himself so if given more time I'm sure he would be interested in exerting more control over certain areas of the economy to enrich himself, especially something like social media so he could force feed you with his propaganda. But you are right though. I guess I will just have to call him a half-ass fascist. Like almost everything else he does other than being a conman, he was a failure.
06-08-2021, 12:45 AM
Antifa means antifascist.
There may be some black clad "Antifa" who think they are fighting fascism. But for the most part I think they are opportunistic punks who like chaos. That doesn't make the antifa concept bad. 
06-08-2021, 10:00 AM
(06-07-2021, 03:07 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'd say it's going to have to exact effect intended. Ultra-left leaning productions and reports like these are only going to embloden certain people, and legitimize their beliefs that we're truly in a war and that those that oppose them are akin to Nazis. It's dangerous and it should be called out just as much as should the things you seen from the other extreme. Amazing sh!t, isn't it?
06-08-2021, 10:15 AM
(06-07-2021, 03:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I find it interesting, with the video that was provided and all of the discussion to be had, that you immediately jumped on this. I'm not. There is a psycho level of hatred for Trump.
06-08-2021, 10:34 AM
(06-07-2021, 05:21 PM)treee Wrote: So you follow the line of thinking that just because he was bad at enacting his facist goals, that absolves him of the classification. I disagree. What exactly were his fascist goals? Securing the border, putting America first, calling out the climate BS, cancelling crap deals with other Countries, energy independence, making other Countries pay up, trying to hold China accountable, supporting Keystone XL, etc? 
06-08-2021, 10:40 AM
(06-07-2021, 05:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, The Lincoln Project is a conservative group. The folks who made that ad were making ads for the GOP before Trump took hold of the party. I just want to make sure you understand that. They are in no way on the left, let alone the ultra-left. They aren't even centrist. They are anti-Trump conservatives. I actually did some research (I spent about 15 minutes on their website, Wikipedia and on The Lincoln Project's twitter page) after reading this. I was completely unaware of who they were. You're right, they have done work with the Republican party in the past but I'm not so sure I'd call them a conservative group. I'd call them an Anti-Trump group. That's literally all they do. That's their entire goal. They make it abundantly clear. I also question just how conservative they are because they all held jobs like "campaign manager" "consultant" and "political operative" which doesn't necessarily tell me a whole lot about their beliefs just their profession. Someone like Roy Kohn comes to mind, who worked with McCarthy, when I'm trying to determine if they're actually conservative or not, or if they just go where they money takes them. An example of this, their cofounder worked for the Democratic party in between stints with John McCain. (Fwiw, he also was caught up in a scandal where he was offering "professional support" for sex with men. He also got caught grooming a 14 a year old boy for 4 years that immediately turned sexual in nature once he reached 18.) To each their own, but I wouldn't consider this group to be anything other than Anti-Trump. If they were actual conservatives they would have went back to covering or working in conservative politics after their goal was reached (getting Trump out of office). They haven't. They're still tweeting about him every single day. I could be totally wrong but I have a feeling that like most of scumbags in Washington they're only agenda is making as much money as they can. And devoting 4 years to "bringing down Trump" (their words) offered them the best they could get in that climate. Regardless of all this, MSNBC is very much left wing and they're the ones that ran this ad on National TV.
06-08-2021, 10:51 AM
(06-08-2021, 12:37 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Fair enough. I see all of the boxes unchecked but one that is left up for intereptation, and pails in comparison to the actual fascist leaders in the past. Dictator having complete power? No. Forcibly suspressing opposition and critcism? No. (Show me an example of force, and explain to me how someone can take a picture holding his severed bloody head and face zero consequences. Explain to me how tens of millions of people, and every facet of the media and entertainment were able to rip him every single day for 4 years. Real examples of this result in a bullet to the head for a single quote or statement.) Regimenting all industry and commerce. lol. No. Wtf. Agressive nationalism and often racism. This one is up for intereptation. I consider aggressive nationalism and racism to be things like slaughtering millions of Jews, engaging in Eugenics, the Hitler Youth, occupying half of Europe. Some may equate "make America great again" or denouncing illegal immigration to this, as it can be argued it is form of it. That's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
06-08-2021, 10:57 AM
(06-08-2021, 10:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I actually did some research (I spent about 15 minutes on their website, Wikipedia and on The Lincoln Project's twitter page) after reading this. I was completely unaware of who they were. So, I'm pretty knowledgeable about the folks at Lincoln Project. They are definitely conservative. I know their other works, I've heard them speak, I've even had a conversation with one. Their goal isn't completed, because they view Trump as a threat to conservatism and the GOP. Since the GOP is still married to Trump and Trumpism, they have a continuing effort to fight against these ideas in an attempt to return the GOP to actual conservatism. As to your last point, that may be, but I just view media as all having a corporate bias. They will air who pays them and satisfies the others that pay them.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
06-08-2021, 11:02 AM
(06-07-2021, 10:55 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If Pelosi and Pence were executed on 1/6, the presidential election results were thrown out, Trump stayed in power like he wanted, the political opposition was silenced like he wanted, police beat up and suppressed any parties that gathered to voice their displeasure like he wanted. Would that qualify as fascist? If you truly believe that his end goal when he said what he said ("We're going to fight like hell"???) was for them to overtake the capital and execute Pelosi and Pence so he could stay in power then I would highly suggest taking a step back from all of this. Look, I'll be the first to say that that entire scene was an absolute shit-show. That Trump, like always, is entirely too reckless with his words, that he has no tact, that he bears responsibility for making things worse. I'm not a fan of the man whatsoever. I think he's an egotistical and inauthentic douchebag, although I describe 80% of politicians somewhat similarly. But in asbolute no way do I beleive that he actually wanted people to be hurt, and beaten up and executed as you've just described. I may not be a fan of the way the man carries himself, nor do I think he's "presidential" or fit for the position, but in no way do I find him to be an actual monster of a human being. I swear, some of you guys go entirely way too far with these descriptions. It's like this man has completely broken your brain.
06-08-2021, 11:19 AM
06-08-2021, 11:35 AM
(06-07-2021, 05:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The utter irony being that those soldiers in WW2 would be considered fascists by the standards of Antifa based on their politics. They'd catch a bike lock or concrete milkshake to the head just for walking by with something that bears the American flag. |
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